NSW mobile phone detection cameras

[Yellow_Festiva]

Just a heads up they they will be starting their 3 month grace period from tomorrow:

New mobile detection cameras to be turned on in NSW this weekend

From Sunday, motorists who use their phone while driving run the risk of being caught out by new mobile detection cameras.

Ally Foster, NOVEMBER 30, 2019

Dozens of new mobile detection cameras are set to be switched on across NSW tomorrow and drivers will not be told where they are installed.

From December 1, 45 of the detection cameras will be set up across the state in both fixed and trailer-mounted spots.

The decision comes after a successful six month trial of the world-first safety technology provided by tech company Acusensus.

The cameras were set up at two locations across Sydney, one on the Clunies Ross St overpass on the M4 Motorway and the other on Anzac Parade at Moore Park.

During the trial about 8.5 million vehicles were checked and more than 100,000 drivers were caught using their phones illegally – the equivalent of $34.5 million in fines.

The technology uses high-definition cameras to capture images of the front seats of the vehicle as it drives past.

Artificial intelligence is then used to automatically review the images and detect if a driver is on their phone.

If the automated system flags an offending driver, that image will then be reviewed by a human before a penalty is issued.

The cameras are even capable of catching dangerous drivers at night, in poor weather conditions and at speeds up to 300km/h.

As with other road safety camera programs in NSW, strict controls are in place to ensure images captured by the system are securely stored and managed.

NO WARNING SIGNS FOR DRIVERS

Unlike with speed cameras, there will be no warning signs to alert drivers to the presence of the mobile detection cameras.

Centre for Road Safety executive director Bernard Carlon said drivers need to believe they can be caught at any time.

“Mobile phone use while driving is not a black spot problem it is happening all over the road network all the time,” he said.

“To truly deter people from breaking the law and putting people’s lives at risk, offenders need to believe they could be caught anywhere on the road network at any time.”

NSW Transport Minister Andrew Constance hit back at Labor last week after revealing the party was seeking an amendment in the legislation that would result in warnings signs being put up.

Mr Constance told 2GB’s Ray Hadley he was “furious” about the suggestion, claiming it would completely undermine the purpose of the cameras.

“I don’t want these signs warning people about the mobile phones because the moment someone backs out of their driveway I want them to know they can get busted anywhere, any time,” he said.

“Advice back from the experts are saying that there could be 100 lives saved with having these cameras in place, but that drops dramatically if you put the warning signs up.

“You put up the warning signs and people immediately get off the phones and then you have defeated the purpose of the program and that is to save lives.”

NRMA spokesman Peter Khoury has also backed the push for warning signs to be put up, saying the public have a right to know where they are located.

“The NRMA fought for these cameras, but they must come with warning signs in the same way every other camera on our roads has,” Mr Khoury said.

“These cameras must be about getting people to put down their phones, not taking away licences.

“We want people to change their behaviour behind the wheel – not three weeks later when they get a fine in the mail. Warning signs are a vital part of the enforcement and education mix.”

Though no warning signs will be posted before the cameras, Transport for NSW will be installing signs on key routes so drivers are aware the cameras are in use across the state.

THREE-MONTH GRACE PERIOD

For the first three months the cameras are running, drivers will not be issued fines if they are caught by the new technology.

Instead, they’ll be sent warning letters during the grace period.

An advertising campaign is also running on TV, radio, social media, billboards and printed materials to advise of the cameras operating in warning mode for the first three months.

When the first three months is over offending drivers will be issued a $344 fine and five demerit points.

This penalty is bumped up to $457 if they are caught in a school zone or ten demerit points if they are caught during a double demerits period.

Double demerits will be in force over the Christmas and New Year period from December 20 to January 1, 2020.

https://www.news.com.au/technology/i...450bd77102f838

One issue with this. I'm of the understanding that you CAN use your phone while driving as long as it's in a fixed holder and that it is being used for navigation (and music selection??) in NSW.

Are they playing on words here and trying to spook the public?

If you look at all the supplied images - none are mounted? They are all hand held.

However, there is no clarification of 'using a mobile phone' and 'on a mobile phone'.

Because, you are certainly 'using a mobile phone' if it's navigating and you are selecting destinations / route options while it's in a cradle.

So, reading between the lines it seems that as long as the phone is being held in a cradle you can't get a fine because there is no way to prove what you are actually doing on the phone.

The camera's seem pretty decent in size and they will soon enough be listed on WAZE (Something police are trying to stop) - especially when people start getting their warnings.

I was under the impression there was one at the intersection of Hume hwy and Stacey st Bankstown up where the concrete water tank is but from the size of the hardware used it seems to be not the case?

[wodahs]

i would wonder how a camera would be able to detect a phone in a cradle was active an any way let alone see some of them in their mounted setups even being visible to a camera
or distinguish between your stereo running and you singing along or your phone active in the cradle and your talking to it or even with the new cars function voice command running and your talking to it
id say it would run of more recognition detection software to detect the phone in an area relative to the driver to decide if your utilizing it

[Yellow_Festiva]

Originally Posted by wodahs

i would wonder how a camera would be able to detect a phone in a cradle was active an any way let alone see some of them in their mounted setups even being visible to a camera
or distinguish between your stereo running and you singing along or your phone active in the cradle and your talking to it or even with the new cars function voice command running and your talking to it
id say it would run of more recognition detection software to detect the phone in an area relative to the driver to decide if your utilizing it

I think they are equating 'phone usage' to you physically touching your phone.

If it is in your hands then you are done.

You can't get done for using voice commands or accessing the functions of your phone via your car radio.

https://roadsafety.transport.nsw.gov...he-rules.html#

As I said, there is actually a lot you CAN do on your phone while driving - as long as it's mounted in a phone holder.

[wodahs]

Originally Posted by Yellow_Festiva

I think they are equating 'phone usage' to you physically touching your phone.

If it is in your hands then you are done.

You can't get done for using voice commands or accessing the functions of your phone via your car radio.

https://roadsafety.transport.nsw.gov...he-rules.html#

As I said, there is actually a lot you CAN do on your phone while driving - as long as it's mounted in a phone holder.

and i think you missed my point at the cameras being unable to detect the phone unless its in your hand and visible to the camera , active or not as this would primarily be the way the camera would detect/identify it

[Yellow_Festiva]

Originally Posted by wodahs

and i think you missed my point at the cameras being unable to detect the phone unless its in your hand and visible to the camera , active or not as this would primarily be the way the camera would detect/identify it

I get ya.

That's the only real way you are going to get pinged.

I knew a chap that used to lay his phone sideways in front of the speedo - it would slide back and fourth but lean back at such an angle that it was able to be used and most of the time it was a navigator so the driver just used the speed output on the screen and not his car one.

With the plastic overhang that keeps the sun off some clusters then he won't be done as there is no proof he is fooling around with his phone.

These cameras will pay for themselves within months but then drop drastically once word gets out that you can't get done if it's in a holder.

[Citroënbender]

The level of addiction people have to them, is amazing.

I’ve worked out the triangular panel above the ICC on a BA/F Falcon can be worked up to accommodate an iPad mini, and just look like the factory stand-up touch screens on many contemporary cars. That solves the “problem” for me.

[five 7]

Have to say i'm on the road a bit and most weaving cars have a 40/50 something trying to access there phone, plus most of the kids i know have had a nose to tail from looking down to txt. Look around you when your stuck in traffic and every ones head is buried in there laps. As Citroenbender said peoples addiction to them is amazing. Imagine what a penalty of 3 months of no phone use would do to some people, hard to enforce but i feel its up there with impaired driving.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by five 7

most weaving cars have a 40/50 something trying to access there phone, plus most of the kids i know have had a nose to tail from looking down to txt.

May be so, but WRT involvement in serious accidents, the link appears tenuous. When NSW police did a blitz on the matter, they issued 42,000 fines but there were only 13 serious crashes linked to phone use over the same period.

To me, this is just yet another way to automate and therefore monetise police activity. If phone use isn't a major link to road trauma, but its only causing involvement in minor accidents, then it contradicts the police's position to not attend minor accidents. Either it's serious enough to warrant police interest, or it's not.

[deesun]

Originally Posted by b0son

May be so, but WRT involvement in serious accidents, the link appears tenuous. When NSW police did a blitz on the matter, they issued 42,000 fines but there were only 13 serious crashes linked to phone use over the same period.

To me, this is just yet another way to automate and therefore monetise police activity. If phone use isn't a major link to road trauma, but its only causing involvement in minor accidents, then it contradicts the police's position to not attend minor accidents. Either it's serious enough to warrant police interest, or it's not.

13 serious accidents that probably wouldn't have happened if they weren't on their phones. 26 cars seriously damaged, immeasurable amounts of people affected hundreds of thousands of taxpayer $$$ used up in first responders and the list goes on and on.
Get off your phones people, not saying at all you do b0son.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by deesun

13 serious accidents that probably wouldn't have happened if they weren't on their phones. 26 cars seriously damaged

unless any were single vehicle accidents

if they were genuinely concerned about safety, they would attend fender benders and they would hand out fines for negligent driving. that likely would have an effect on driving standards.

similarly, they would require elderly drivers to demonstrate competence. per km travelled, our oldest drivers are as dangerous as the youngest. but the big difference is that young drivers have predominantly single vehicle accidents, elderly drivers tend to hit others. on that basis alone, they warrant more police attention.

instead, police roll out tech to target behaviour lots of drivers partake in, without necessarily doing much for road safety. sounds familiar...

[real time]

This government should be congratulated for bring this law in

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by real time

This government should be congratulated for bring this law in

It will even be better when other states follow with this roll out, can't come soon enough!
Just think of the new revenue stream it will generate for governments.....

[snap0964]

When I'm out shopping or wherever, I lose count how many times people nearly walk into you because they're watching their phone, and not what's going on around them.
Can just imagine this on the roads.

[Rallye Sport]

Great idea I've been caught behind two this week right hand lane 10 and 20km under the speed limit oblivious to anything else. I usually sound my horn as I go by only to be greeted with a scowl for selfishly interrupting their conversation
I've also taken to giving a little more space to the car at front at traffic lights. As soon as you see the head go down in the car behind take your foot off the brake to turn off the brake lights, roll forward a foot and watch them think its time to go. Great sport but after a couple of goes I think some of them get wise to it.
Regarding cradles is there any legislation on the positioning of them?
Far too often I see them mounted on the windscreen under the rear view mirror of next to the A-pillar.
The obstruction of vision would **** me to tears.

[Franco Cozzo]

Imagine coming out of jail after 30 years and seeing all these people with things in their ears looking down at this rectangular device everywhere wondering around slowly - you'd think the zombie apocalypse has come and gone while you were inside.

[Mowdit]

Originally Posted by Rallye Sport

Regarding cradles is there any legislation on the positioning of them?
Far too often I see them mounted on the windscreen under the rear view mirror of next to the A-pillar.
The obstruction of vision would **** me to tears.

Nav mounted to the left of my fluffy dice hanging from the rear view with a phone holder to the right, with a note pad next to the A pillar
Oh where to put my dancing Elvis .......
But can't have a chip in my windscreen FFS

[|||]

freakin yuppies

[BENT_8]

Its funny you know, I remember a time when you'd never pull up behind a truck or other heavy vehicle at a set of lights if there was another lane without one as the heavy vehicle occupied lane was always the slowest at getting going, that is no longer the case and I believe its for 2 reasons, firstly heavy vehicles have become quicker off the mark but more importantly, the general publics fixation with checking who's said what at every opportunity now results in long lines of dreamers lined up in the fast lane and when the light goes green they take forever to A/ realise the light has changed and they're now free to go on with life, B/engage a gear and get going.
Meanwhile the once slow left lane is now well and truly up to speed.

Check it out next time you're in traffic, its quite noticeable.

[marty351]

Reminded me of this...

[jinksie]

I second the front line in traffic and the amount of times the person in the front is still stationary long after the green light.
I also observe how few holders are in use and put it down to modern cars with entertainment systems and screens.
I think it is the most dangerous habit to be texting while driving and annoying the number of drivers who are on their phones at the lights, especially the first vehicle.
On the phone while on a call is not so bad but still a distraction even with blue tooth connection thru the vehicle, it does suck up some attention, but at least you can have your eyes on the road.
I use my phone for navigation and it is kept in a holder. More modern vehicles integrate your phone and learning your phones car mode is the solution, if you make calls while you drive.
There are plenty of road rules that are not well known online and regarding use of a phone, it has to be in a holder or in your pocket otherwise it is in use.
The Police are allowed to use their phones while driving but if they are serious about road safety they'd make it illegal for them as well as it spreads the wrong message and image that it is somehow okay to be on your phone.

[Ben73]

Good. I’ve noticed the number of red light runners seems to be up over the past few years.
Zero sympathy

[Citroënbender]

I think it’s more attitudinal than phone based conduct, that issue.

Having been rear-ended hard a couple of times I will go through an amber light if not reasonably confident the car behind is watching and can/will stop. (I also deliberately flash the brakes three or more times when braking to a halt.)

[Tonz]

back in late 70's early 80's I had a Ford Transit with sliding front doors, great way to travel in summer, doors clipped open etc.
But the pleasure was pulling up to traffic lights have a cassette players that had pre recorded noises, one was phone ringing...
conversation would go like this.

'ring ring ring'
'gidday, me here...'
pretend to listen...
'yeah, they right beside me....hang on...'
lean out to car next door with the old black bakalite phone mouth piece
'oi!....phone call for ya...'
traffic lights change and your off... laughing stupid heads off.

We had a guy chased us for 5 miles down Parramatta Rd one day wanting to know who it was wanting to talk to him.

[simon varley]

see, I'm far from convinced. If phone usage was really such a road safety issue, the cops could have been out in force years ago policing the already existing laws, but how many people do you know have ever been done? Call me old, grumpy and cynical, but why wait until it can be automated to police this law? Revenue?

[Giant Cranium]

Originally Posted by simon varley

see, I'm far from convinced. If phone usage was really such a road safety issue, the cops could have been out in force years ago policing the already existing laws, but how many people do you know have ever been done? Call me old, grumpy and cynical, but why wait until it can be automated to police this law? Revenue?

In Sydney city the motorbike police far outnumber the cars. They lane split and check drivers.

I’ve seen countless people get done. You ask any cop and they will tell you catching people on the phone would be the easiest way to meet their ‘quota’

[FoxtrotGolfXray 5.0]

Originally Posted by simon varley

see, I'm far from convinced. If phone usage was really such a road safety issue, the cops could have been out in force years ago policing the already existing laws, but how many people do you know have ever been done? Call me old, grumpy and cynical, but why wait until it can be automated to police this law? Revenue?

Never watch Motorbike Cops?

Season 2 Episode 3 summary includes the comment "Mark and Rohan are sick of busting driver after driver on their mobile phones with lame excuses."

Episode here:
https://7plus.com.au/motorbike-cops?...-id=MTCP02-003

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by simon varley

see, I'm far from convinced. If phone usage was really such a road safety issue, the cops could have been out in force years ago policing the already existing laws, but how many people do you know have ever been done? Call me old, grumpy and cynical, but why wait until it can be automated to police this law? Revenue?

If you stupid enough to contribute to government revenue then so be it, everyone knows they are risking a fine when using their phones illegally.
No sympathy to the dumb asses who are risking our lives.

[BENT_8]

I don't have a problem with pinging people who are using their phones whilst driving or at lights/intersections etc. but what I have a problem with is the ambiguous rules, especially here in SA with regard to using them when 'parked' and the 'official' interpretation of that term.

In SA we are allowed to use a mobile device to make and receive a call when parked, the rule makes no mention of whether the engine can be running or not, only that 'parked' can not be at lights or queued in traffic.
I've had some people say must be switched off, some say all good to be running, the problem is the rule doesn't actually specify.

I had an incident last week with regard to this exact situation, had just left the school where the bus had sat without the engine running for around 20 minutes in 25* weather, it doesn't take long for the inside to reach much higher and so I always turn the AC on when we get under way.
Soon after leaving the school one of my new students gets up and starts wondering around the bus, I caution them but unfortunately being new Australians they don't quite understand the rules or what im saying necessarily, so my only option is to contact the school co-ordinator and notify them of the situation, this can take quite a while as they aren't always readily on hand to take a call, I have a direct line but if I was to go by the proper procedure it involves a call to the contractor, who then contacts the school, who then contacts the co-ordinator, who then contacts me, it can take 10 minutes minimum.

Obviously I cant do this whilst driving and as my first drop off was only a few hundred meters up the road I arrived there, put the bus in park as its an auto, applied the handbrake and switched on the hazard lights, I left the engine running with the AC on as it was still very warm, these AC units take a while to cool the bus.

I opened the bus door and let the 2 students, who's house i'd arrived at, out.
Now as far as im concerned I've done the right thing, waited until I stopped and parked the bus.
I reached for my phone and only just picked it up when some guy riding past on his push bike, on the footpath with no helmet might I add, stopped and started going off his head because in his mind, having the engine running, im driving whilst on the phone.
So I tried to explain the situation but he wasn't having a bar of it, threatened to call my employer etc. etc.
So when I got home I searched up the road rules, this is the rule as written for SA...

AUSTRALIAN ROAD RULES - REG 300
300—Use of mobile phones
(1) The driver of a vehicle must not use a mobile phone while the vehicle is moving, or is stationary but not parked, unless—
(a) the phone is being used to make or receive an audio phone call and the body of the phone—
(i) is secured in a mounting affixed to the vehicle while being so used; or
(ii) is not secured in a mounting affixed to the vehicle and is not being held by the driver, and the use of the phone does not require the driver, at any time while using it, to press any thing on the body of the phone or to otherwise manipulate any part of the body of the phone; or
(ab) the phone is being used as a driver's aid and—
(i) the body of the phone is secured in a mounting affixed to the vehicle while being so used; and
(ii) the use of the phone does not require the driver, at any time while using it, to press any thing on the body of the phone or otherwise to manipulate any part of the body of the phone; or
(b) the vehicle is an emergency vehicle or a police vehicle; or
(c) the driver is exempt from this rule under another law of this jurisdiction.
Offence provision.
Note—
"Emergency vehicle", "park" and "police vehicle are defined in the dictionary.

SA NOTE—
For South Australia, in addition to this rule, see regulation 44 of the Road Traffic (Road Rules—Ancillary and Miscellaneous Provisions) Regulations 2014

And this from the SA Government DPTI website..

You must not use a hand-held mobile phone while your vehicle is moving or is stationary in traffic (for example, at traffic lights). You may, however, use a hand-held mobile phone while your vehicle is parked.
If a person wishes to make or receive a call, including dialling a number and needs to touch any part of the phone to do so, that phone must be mounted (in a mounting commercially designed and manufactured for that purpose).
If the phone is being used via blue tooth, a headset or earphones without touching, holding or resting the phone on their body, the driver may touch the earpiece or headphone to operate the phone (the phone may be located anywhere in the vehicle, including the driver's pocket or pouch they are wearing).
It is an offence to create, send or look at a text, video message or email on a mobile phone.
It is an offence to make or receive a video call on a mobile phone whilst your vehicle is moving.
Drivers of police or emergency vehicles are exempt.

Now I understand why some people would consider having your engine running as not 'parked' but if I we're to pull up in my car in a zone marked with a NO PARKING sign and left my engine running for half an hour, am I parked?

Thoughts..

[GCRXR6]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

I don't have a problem with pinging people who are using their phones whilst driving or at lights/intersections etc. but what I have a problem with is the ambiguous rules, especially here in SA with regard to using them when 'parked' and the 'official' interpretation of that term.

In SA we are allowed to use a mobile device to make and receive a call when parked, the rule makes no mention of whether the engine can be running or not, only that 'parked' can not be at lights or queued in traffic.
I've had some people say must be switched off, some say all good to be running, the problem is the rule doesn't actually specify.

I had an incident last week with regard to this exact situation, had just left the school where the bus had sat without the engine running for around 20 minutes in 25* weather, it doesn't take long for the inside to reach much higher and so I always turn the AC on when we get under way.
Soon after leaving the school one of my new students gets up and starts wondering around the bus, I caution them but unfortunately being new Australians they don't quite understand the rules or what im saying necessarily, so my only option is to contact the school co-ordinator and notify them of the situation, this can take quite a while as they aren't always readily on hand to take a call, I have a direct line but if I was to go by the proper procedure it involves a call to the contractor, who then contacts the school, who then contacts the co-ordinator, who then contacts me, it can take 10 minutes minimum.

Obviously I cant do this whilst driving and as my first drop off was only a few hundred meters up the road I arrived there, put the bus in park as its an auto, applied the handbrake and switched on the hazard lights, I left the engine running with the AC on as it was still very warm, these AC units take a while to cool the bus.

I opened the bus door and let the 2 students, who's house i'd arrived at, out.
Now as far as im concerned I've done the right thing, waited until I stopped and parked the bus.
I reached for my phone and only just picked it up when some guy riding past on his push bike, on the footpath with no helmet might I add, stopped and started going off his head because in his mind, having the engine running, im driving whilst on the phone.
So I tried to explain the situation but he wasn't having a bar of it, threatened to call my employer etc. etc.
So when I got home I searched up the road rules, this is the rule as written for SA...

AUSTRALIAN ROAD RULES - REG 300
300—Use of mobile phones
(1) The driver of a vehicle must not use a mobile phone while the vehicle is moving, or is stationary but not parked, unless—
(a) the phone is being used to make or receive an audio phone call and the body of the phone—
(i) is secured in a mounting affixed to the vehicle while being so used; or
(ii) is not secured in a mounting affixed to the vehicle and is not being held by the driver, and the use of the phone does not require the driver, at any time while using it, to press any thing on the body of the phone or to otherwise manipulate any part of the body of the phone; or
(ab) the phone is being used as a driver's aid and—
(i) the body of the phone is secured in a mounting affixed to the vehicle while being so used; and
(ii) the use of the phone does not require the driver, at any time while using it, to press any thing on the body of the phone or otherwise to manipulate any part of the body of the phone; or
(b) the vehicle is an emergency vehicle or a police vehicle; or
(c) the driver is exempt from this rule under another law of this jurisdiction.
Offence provision.
Note—
"Emergency vehicle", "park" and "police vehicle are defined in the dictionary.

SA NOTE—
For South Australia, in addition to this rule, see regulation 44 of the Road Traffic (Road Rules—Ancillary and Miscellaneous Provisions) Regulations 2014

And this from the SA Government DPTI website..

You must not use a hand-held mobile phone while your vehicle is moving or is stationary in traffic (for example, at traffic lights). You may, however, use a hand-held mobile phone while your vehicle is parked.
If a person wishes to make or receive a call, including dialling a number and needs to touch any part of the phone to do so, that phone must be mounted (in a mounting commercially designed and manufactured for that purpose).
If the phone is being used via blue tooth, a headset or earphones without touching, holding or resting the phone on their body, the driver may touch the earpiece or headphone to operate the phone (the phone may be located anywhere in the vehicle, including the driver's pocket or pouch they are wearing).
It is an offence to create, send or look at a text, video message or email on a mobile phone.
It is an offence to make or receive a video call on a mobile phone whilst your vehicle is moving.
Drivers of police or emergency vehicles are exempt.

Now I understand why some people would consider having your engine running as not 'parked' but if I we're to pull up in my car in a zone marked with a NO PARKING sign and left my engine running for half an hour, am I parked?

Thoughts..

I believe that "Parked" means engine off, trany in gear and parking brake applied.
If you have the engine running, you are "Standing"

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by GCRXR6

I believe that "Parked" means engine off, trany in gear and parking brake applied.
If you have the engine running, you are "Standing"

Agreed, the problem is that 'Parked' can be applied differently to different situations.
If you look at the link in Jinksie's post above it clearly states under point 5 of the unrestricted licence heading, that 'parked' means out of the line of traffic and can have the ignition on whilst using a mobile device.
So their interpretation in that instance is that having your ignition on is still considered 'parked', yet having it on in a No Parking zone is considered 'Standing'.

Then there's this from the SA Gov DPTI website with regards to 'parking'...

'Parking is when you stop and allow your vehicle to stay in one place, whether or not you leave the vehicle unattended.

Again, no mention of ignition position.

These things could easily be cleared up with a few additional words in the written rule.