Gen 3 piston slap

Psycho Chicken · 22-10-2005, 08:55 PM

Not entirely sure it belongs here, but I figure someone will know. Plus I can't join LS1.com with hotmail (yeah I know...).

Anyway, don't turn this into a slag fest please, that's not the point.

My mum is looking at getting rid of her VT Calais (series 1 V6, stock as). She's found a VT2 Clubbie she's keen on.

: 6 speed, all that stuff. I'm want to get her into an EL2 XR8 or an AU 2/3 XR8, that's another story though. I'm trying to steer her away from the Commodore as a whole, but in the end it's her choice I spose. I just don't want her to land someone else's dud engine and have problem after problem.

What are the facts on the Gen 3 issues? Obviously it's an early engine, that's why I'm worried. It's only done 93,000, so who knows what's in store. I know what piston slap sounds like and I'll be driving it tomorrow, is there anything else to look for? Would oil consumption tests be listed in the owners manual? It's meant to have a full service history at the dealer who's selling it, can I get them to drag out old ROs or is there some legality on that?

EL_futuraistic · 22-10-2005, 09:11 PM

All GEN3 vehicles that had engine problems had to undergo oil consumption tests. If it has had any oil consumption tests it will be on register with the dealer. Most dealers have big log books of faulty vehicles.

I dont think oil consumption tests were kept in the owners manual, however as i said would be logged with GMH or the dealer.

Most of the problems with the Gen3 were VT2, VX and a selected few VY. Im not sure if there was a "all out" recall for piston ring replacement just affected vehicles.

Im not sure how to check, but it would be worth seeing if the motor has been replaced or anything else for that matter such as the diff or gearbox.

OIL LEAKS
Rear Main Seal (standard for Falcons and Commo's)
Power Steering Pump (very common)
Water Pump (worth a look)

Other than that just general things like LSD operation, Diff Knock, Creakey Doors, Power windows working correctly, Bumpers not aligned correctly (possibly been in accident), Ensure Badges are in the correct place (possibly been in accident)

As long as it hasnt been thrashed, and has been serviced regularly Gen3's can be a very quick, reliable vehicle.

CAMS290 · 22-10-2005, 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EL_futuraistic

All GEN3 vehicles that had engine problems had to undergo oil consumption tests.

Bzzzz....Wrong.

Some did and some didnt, if it did have a problem most likely it would of been fixed.
Get someone that knows about Gen 3's to check it out for you, if it needs to be done and if you get the car for the right price, it may be worth getting it fixed.

They are an awesome motor, their times speak for themselves and the LS2 is better again.

Who said push rod technology was out of date ?

Just putting my flame suit on now. lol

EL_futuraistic · 22-10-2005, 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CAMS290

Bzzzz....Wrong.

Some did and some didnt, if it did have a problem most likely it would of been fixed.
Get someone that knows about Gen 3's to check it out for you, if it needs to be done and if you get the car for the right price, it may be worth getting it fixed.

They are an awesome motor, their times speak for themselves and the LS2 is better again.

Who said push rod technology was out of date ?

Just putting my flame suit on now. lol

actually I said "all gen3 vehicles THAT had problems i did not say all of them had problems, and they did not just get fixed automatically.... they had to undergo a series of oil consumption tests.

MNM96 · 22-10-2005, 10:27 PM

The earliest engines were crated here, and offered little to no dramas. Holden wanted more power, around the VTII and gained this by lightening the reciprocating mass. This was achieved by shortening the piston skirt, which led to cylinder wear when engine was cool, due to the pistons "laying over", so to speak. Nice power increase, unfortunate by-product!
I drove a 6 Speed VX Clubby, and thought the clutch carried a very odd feel, unlike any manual I had ever sampled.
Beaut ride but, I loved it! Not BLUE enough for me however, so Henry it will be!

Psycho Chicken · 22-10-2005, 10:29 PM

How early is early? Any dates?

MaDDoG · 22-10-2005, 10:58 PM

My VX Clubby had piston slap when started cold and using Mobil 1. Once it was warmed up no probs. Noise only lasted 10 or 15 secs. Had oil consumption tests etc done but it did not use any oil. Apparently 2.5 lts per 10,000 k's is acceptable but as I said mine did not use any. Simple remedy for me was to change oil. I went for Magnatec and the noise all but dissappeared. Just make sure when you drive it YOU start it from cold. If the dealer were to start it and bring it around the yard to you you might not hear anything. Having said that I was more than happy with my LS1. Went like the stuff that will not stick to a teflon shovel. Fuel consumtion was good....9.5 lts per 100 on the highway and went off the clock in top speed....260+. Never bothered to dyno it and did not have LS1 edit either. Simple exhaust and cold air intake maf pipe and that was about all...255 kw to what was probably about 285 -290. A nice car that turned heads and with 2.5" zaust sounded grouse.
Where I worked we had a couple of VX and VY SS things. They did go better than the XR's we had but a couple did have some niggling dramas with oil and diffs and electric seats. But they were fixed under warranty of course.

So I guess the answer is....no matter what you buy you may get an good one and you may not.........hope that helps.

_2:

SSBUB · 22-10-2005, 11:07 PM

the whole piston slap thing affected like 2.7% of gen 3's, its just one of those things that have been built up to a monster problem when whilst it does occur, i dont think its as much as people believe....in any case
a MUST is to start that engine cold...a lot of the 'piston slappers' have the noise when cold but when warm, the noise is less apparent in a lot of vehicles...piston slappin was more apparent also with the earlier models...however, i noticed the car your looking at has 90+ kms...piston slap as a problem would have well and truly occured by now...i have a vx ss and its a series one and the motor has done 105k. I replaced the power steering pump the other day (bought it from a ford dealer with 3 yr premium warranty so its all covered) so, as EL futuristic suggested, check ALL kinds of pumps etc...but most importantly, get it checked out in its cold state if possible...any unusual sounds, then run :evil_laug

galaxy xr8 · 23-10-2005, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SSBUB

the whole piston slap thing affected like 2.7% of gen 3's, its just one of those things that have been built up to a monster problem when whilst it does occur, i dont think its as much as people believe....in any case
a MUST is to start that engine cold...a lot of the 'piston slappers' have the noise when cold but when warm, the noise is less apparent in a lot of vehicles...piston slappin was more apparent also with the earlier models...however, i noticed the car your looking at has 90+ kms...piston slap as a problem would have well and truly occured by now...i have a vx ss and its a series one and the motor has done 105k. I replaced the power steering pump the other day (bought it from a ford dealer with 3 yr premium warranty so its all covered) so, as EL futuristic suggested, check ALL kinds of pumps etc...but most importantly, get it checked out in its cold state if possible...any unusual sounds, then run :evil_laug

Now now, biased asside, I think there was more than 2.7% affected, don't be naive.

Paddyboy · 23-10-2005, 01:52 AM

just make sure it has full service history and make sure u check the service book to see what had been repaired.

SpoolMan · 23-10-2005, 02:17 AM

How bad was the piston slap problem read for your self? http://www.pistonslap.com/ this website is no joke, serious stuff it includes LS1 5.7L
We do have a member here who owns a GT-P and VX LS1 it’s only had 3 re-builds under warranty...it came up in a conversation today because his wife is upset now the window won’t go up...

4Vman · 23-10-2005, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XRFPV8

How bad was the piston slap problem read for your self? http://www.pistonslap.com/ this website is no joke, serious stuff it includes LS1 5.7L
We do have a member here who owns a GT-P and VX LS1 it’s only had 3 re-builds under warranty...it came up in a conversation today because his wife is upset now the window won’t go up...

The slap issue was massive, far greater problem than anyone from Holden will ever want you to know, and cost them a fortune.
A mate worked at a dealer as a mechanic and they had a night shift at one stage to deal with change over motor issues, in allot of cases motors were swapped under warrantee without the vehicle owner knowing, they were told the problems fixed, end of comment....

ltd · 23-10-2005, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

The slap issue was massive, far greater problem than anyone from Holden will ever want you to know, and cost them a fortune.
A mate worked at a dealer as a mechanic and they had a night shift at one stage to deal with change over motor issues, in allot of cases motors were swapped under warrantee without the vehicle owner knowing, they were told the problems fixed, end of comment....

True, I've got a mate who works as an auto sparky in one of Holdens dealerships; says that when the gen 3 came out they actually built an engine room next to the workshop. Before that they used to swap motors. Once told me of a WH statesman that had 3 motors put into it, it had only done 22,000klms. He owned a VT 5 litre and wanted to upgrade, but even as an avid holden fan said that the motors were complete crap and he would never buy one. In the end he bought a V6.

mik · 23-10-2005, 03:18 AM

wow that covered a lot of engines, no wonder they are 1.5 billion in red

Psycho Chicken · 23-10-2005, 04:00 PM

Well I went and had a look, could hear it at idle cold and warm, even worse when I blipped the throttle. Added to the fact it's got pretty much no service history, it's over a year overdue on the last service and the general presentation of it (despite being told they will fix anything) I told mum to walk away. It seems the salesman was trying to pull the wool over her eyes a bit as well with the finance.

We went and had a look around, found another one, '00 R8 Clubbie, engine seemed fine, full HSV service history, only issue is a bit of noise from the box, absolutely hammered, but it might be a wee bit out of her price range. Ah well.

SSBUB · 23-10-2005, 04:23 PM

if you dont mind me asking, whats her price range? I got my vx ss for 22k, is a vx out of the question for her?

Psycho Chicken · 23-10-2005, 09:51 PM

Up to about $26000. This other one was $29000.

I dunno if it's just HSVs or if FPVs do it as well, but it's a bloody bogan magnet! Only drove it around for half an hour or so but had every knob wanting a go at the lights.

SSBUB · 23-10-2005, 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psycho Chicken

Up to about $26000. This other one was $29000.

I dunno if it's just HSVs or if FPVs do it as well, but it's a bloody bogan magnet! Only drove it around for half an hour or so but had every knob wanting a go at the lights.

She could get a nice vx ss for that price, probably even a vt clubby, she may even want a 5ltr and not a gen 3?

**ebxr8240** · 23-10-2005, 09:57 PM

Quote
dunno if it's just HSVs or if FPVs do it as well, but it's a bloody bogan magnet! Only drove it around for half an hour or so but had every knob wanting a go at the lights.

Ha own a WRX same !!!! Pita....

Psycho Chicken · 23-10-2005, 10:44 PM

She wants something with lowish k's, most of the 5.0s we've seen are too high for her liking. Haven't seen many VX SS 6 speeds around for some reason. Maybe we're not looking hard enough.

I've told her it might pay to wait a few months and see what the BF does to AU2/3 XR8 prices.

SSBUB · 23-10-2005, 11:34 PM

if shes holden hungry, it would probably even pay to wait for the VE too.

Psycho Chicken · 23-10-2005, 11:38 PM

Not really Holden hungry, just doesn't like AU looks that much. She's so-so on XRs though. And can't wait that long. The noises coming from the VT are starting to scare me.

Psycho Chicken · 24-10-2005, 12:19 AM

On the remote recoding, what's that cost? Stupid brother got a VR and needs a new remote.

OzJavelin · 24-10-2005, 08:52 AM

Ah, my favourite topic. Rollin's analysis sounds spot on to me. I did a fair bit of research on this subject with my VY1 (Jun 03) SV8.

The car was originally my salary sacrifice car which I bought out when I left work. From about 20,000km it had developed a cold-start noise, which I always assumed was piston-slap. I reported it at every service and the same dealer kept telling me it was normal. The engine used NO oil between changes and had heaps of power for a stocky so I didn't worry about it too much (my wife drove it most the time with the CD and AC on so never noticed the noise). Eventually I changed dealers and next service I pointed out the noise again ... to my surprise it came back as "excessive gudgeon pin noise".

Originally Holden were going to "fix" my engine, which AFIAK meant put new piston, ring-packs in it. No bore, hone, etc .. just swap them over. Eventually they provided me with a "replacement" engine. Not a "new" engine, but a GEM-rebuilt (not sure how much rebuilt) engine. Few problems though:
1. Sump leak
2. Initial run-in (and sump leak) used 1.5L oil in 1500km [ however since sump fixed and oil topped up, it appears OK ]
3. Replacement engine is an '01 block .. in my '03 car. Nice ...

Anyway, where am I heading with this? Most LS1 appear to develop problems early in their lives. Attentative owners will probably have had it fixed by now, but there are a lot of unattentative ones. I'd be more worried about the Statemans, Calais, etc .. I hear a LOT started up in shopping centre carparks .. slap, slap, slap. I did once hear a guy get in his HSV GTO coupe and start it up .. slap, slap, slap. Made me feel better about mine

BTW: I'm keeping my SV8 for another few years. It's basically not worth trying to sell it .. I'll loose to much money. My wife can use it to tow the horse float!

big_waity · 24-10-2005, 09:05 AM

I had a mate who bought a VU SS. It had (i believe) the Gen 3 in it. He bought it new and was having oil consumption problems from about 10,000. He started using about 5L a week. Took it to the dealer, they eventually replaced the motor at about 30,000(I think) and the new motor started having problems. Needless to say, he is very pleased with his XR8!

Steffo · 24-10-2005, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by big_waity

I had a mate who bought a VU SS.

All VU V8 Utes had the GenIII LS1 V8. The VU Ute was VX Sedan based. VT/VTII days the utes were VS Series III.

SSBUB · 24-10-2005, 11:17 AM

yeah u can get duds amongst the gen 3's, a lot like any car i guess, but when ya get a good one, they are good....hence buying a gen 3 with higher kms on it which runs well is a much more safe bet than probably a low km gen 3.

ltd · 26-10-2005, 08:55 AM

What's the bet that after findin the attachment to pistonslap, and having a good read as well as listening to the sound file, a couple of holden members on this post ran out to the driveway and began testing their gen 3's.

Ha ha ha.

OzJavelin · 26-10-2005, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ltd

What's the bet that after findin the attachment to pistonslap, and having a good read as well as listening to the sound file, a couple of holden members on this post ran out to the driveway and began testing their gen 3's.

Ha ha ha.

Take it from me, you don't need any effort to hear it. I've heard it when cars start up in busy streets. Unless they are living in their own reality, they've already heard it. Piston slap doesn't seem to really cause a problem in these things though .... unless the noise persists after they warm up.

Rod ('03 VY1 SV8 owner)

SSBUB · 26-10-2005, 11:26 AM

many of the gen 3's will 'slap' when cold, but as Javelin said, it really is more troublesome if they continue to carry on when warm...
And the 2.7% of gen 3 engines effected by severe piston slap was quoted from the herald sun some time ago, there was a section on it with the title reading 'Heart Problems' or something from memory.