Ureka, I found the reason

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

I refer to what I said about if kids think parents and teacher are bad, wait until they have a boss.

Too many young people find this out when they first enter the workforce...

Damn right it was a rude awakening, but that is the problem, looking back over what I've learned at school over the 13 years I spent there.

I come out with nothing at all to do with the real world, no one taught anything about employers, business, unions, OH&S regulations, how the world actually works etc.

I came out with Romeo and Juliet and learning which angle light refracts off glass.

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

where your boss and managers above you are, literally, god, with power over your life.

That is up to you, this happens if you get yourself a mortgage, and all the luxuries like huge *** TVs, new cars on loans etc, if you don't have debts, you're a free person.

Personally, I think you've lost the battle the moment you sign the banks paperwork for a mortgage, you become a slave to the banks and your employer.

I don't think I will ever have kids.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by Rapid_Axe

Can I just say in my case this rings true, because unless I speak calmly to my son to pick up something he will not do it. I can yell at him til I'm black and blue in the face but he just ignores me and goes so far as to smack me back if I tell him off (which sets me off even more as I find that completely disrespectful).

Yes, I also give him a smack if he's been naughty (such as throwing his toys across the room) but he will just cry and run to his mother.

Hmm...dont tell me, she goes into bat for him yeah?

[chamb0]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

I refer to what I said about if kids think parents and teacher are bad, wait until they have a boss.

Too many young people find this out when they first enter the workforce...they are in for a rude awakening when they discover that they can't "do anything they set their mind to"...that "aiming for the stars and don't let anyone tell you that you can't do something" has no place in the real world. That "You're an individual and don't let anyone stifle that" also is hooey when it comes to being a member of a workforce.

They are shocked when they start work and cannot walk into management position or one with their own office, but rather are told they have to prove their worth by cleaning up, getting coffee, sorting files, and running errands. Once they've proved their worth, maybe then they'll be allowed to start climbing the ladder. But for the vast majority, you will start in a crap job, and just keep on doing that crap job for many years. If something better comes along, by all means, try and go for it, but don't expect employers to value your need for self-expression and desire for flexibility in work hours to suit your personal needs.

You will most likely go to work somewhere that you have to wear a uniform of some type (be that a set type of suit or dress or shirt right up to "a uniform"), where your work hours are set in stone, where it is hard to get annual leave, where you must simply knuckle down and conform to the way the business does things (rather than how you think they should do things), where your boss and managers above you are, literally, god, with power over your life. In return, you are given money and expected to turn up on time every day, to be loyal and do as you are told. If you prove yourself worthy, maybe later you will be allowed to progress to higher positions...but most likely you won't...you will be one of dozens of faceless drones who will just have to be content with what they have in life.

Scary thought, isn't it kiddies? But that's life...Life isn't Summer Bay or Friends, where people don't seem to have actual jobs, but whose life revolves around thier social activities and sitting on a beach or in coffee shops or being on endless holiday. Your social activities and spending time with friends will pale into the background, and you will become just like your parents, trying their hardest to get by and survive in a competitive work environment where your freedom of expression and individuality is crushed so that you conform to a set of rules that you have no say over. The sooner you accept it the sooner you will feel more happy with your lot in life.


Every kid should be told that when they start high school...the ones not in shock after a week or so should do alright...

I don't know if you have some sort of power fantasy or you feel bitter because that's how the cookie crumbled for you. Lots of young people I know have started off in good jobs that they love and are valued in. There's a whole spectrum of people, personalities, jobs and employers out there, who don't necessarily fit this simplistic mould you are so keen to typecast everybody into.

You've set out your grand vision for modern education in other threads before this and I can't say I've ever agreed with much of it. However I agree with some of your earlier post as far as parenting these days causing headaches for teachers in the classroom. My partner, sister-in-law and several close friends are early childhood or primary teachers who (after a long day of being sneezed on by other people's snotty brats for hours on end every day) say many, if not most, of their children are affected by a lack of appropriate boundaries from parents, and this seems to be a growing phenomenon. A lot of the kids are in fact desparate for these boundaries and often respond well when they find them in the classroom. Teachers will creatively find ways to create a safe classroom environment which fosters good communication and trust amongst kids and teachers, encourages active learning, curiosity, resilience, initiative and a sense of belonging, and has very clear boundaries which are enforced... teachers have a tough job to do but have a lot of different tools in the toolbox and don't need to resort to the dreary old methods of the old British boarding schools which you so hold so dear.

I dare say in these debates there is sometimes a little bit of the 'kids these days' element going on, whether the issue is real or percieved, and has likely done so since the dawn of humanity. For example, teenagers have always been the convenient whipping posts of society.

[TheSneakiness]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Hmm...dont tell me, she goes into bat for him yeah?

Yeah. I could safely say 75% of the time she does and I cop it for not allowing him to "breathe" as she puts it.

[wrongwaynorris]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

@2011G6E...I have a saying which sums it up fairly well.

'Shoot for the stars by all means, but dont be disheartened if you only hit the top of a stobie pole'

In other words, 'life is what you make of it, sure dream big, but keep it real and never forget where you came from and how you got there'.

And those who helped you along the way .

[Ford_The_Win]

Originally Posted by chamb0

I dare say in these debates there is sometimes a little bit of the 'kids these days' element going on, whether the issue is real or percieved, and has likely done so since the dawn of humanity.

A little? Have you seen some of the threads floating around on AFF? It's like something out of Grumpy Old Men

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by wrongwaynorris

And those who helped you along the way .

Amen brother!

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by Rapid_Axe

Yeah. I could safely say 75% of the time she does and I cop it for not allowing him to "breathe" as she puts it.

Yep, thats another thing that the Psychologist warned of, children playing one parent against the other when one does the disciplining and one plays the good guy.
Its a tough one and something that as parents we need to be aware of, considerate of the spouses views and supportive of a resolution before it affects the marriage.
This is where the 3 baskets come into play and an agreement needs to be made between the parents on how each basket is dealt with to avoid any internal conflict.

My father paid this price with his first wife and my 6 half siblings, he kept them in line and she bought them off afterwards, in the end they resented him and she was god. to this day they dont speak to him which i find tragic really.


It's a toughie, there is no single answer.

[mrghia]

Originally Posted by madwag

gone are the days when grandparents who live near by take care of their grandchildren instead of day care. At least the kid can get a hug when they are crying.

I can t stand when people rely on grandparents to watch there kids. I seen my sister in-law do this and she just abused the fact they were close to them. I think they have other things better to do then look after grand kids during the week.
Personally I think daycare is the best option it just think its up to the parents to enforce right from wrong but a lot of parents don't do this because they want to be friends with there kids and not parents.

[SB076]

Originally Posted by chamb0

I dare say in these debates there is sometimes a little bit of the 'kids these days' element going on, whether the issue is real or percieved, and has likely done so since the dawn of humanity. For example, teenagers have always been the convenient whipping posts of society.

To me its more how the world is going. If anyone brings up the argument with me about kids these days I usually reverse it and say "well you bought them up,you taught them their values etc"

I personally think each generation rebels against the previous generation
Silent generation clean cut patriotic etc (1940's) , then Hippies (1960's), then corporate, wealth focused (think Wall St 1980s) and now we have gen Y. The generation in 2020 will be different again, I suspect they may reject consumerism - which could be very interesting for the worlds economy.

[2011G6E]

Any discussion amongst employers will bring up the same thing again and again...a shockingly large number of young people entering the workforce simply cannot believe they have to start at the bottom and work their way up. The ones that accept this simple fact have a bright future ahead of them.
Some schools may have done away with winners and losers in everything from sports to exams, banned marking papers with red ink because it's "aggressive and threatening", but these are the very schools that, unless parents keep a close eye on their kids to guide them properly, will enter a workforce chock full of winners and losers, and they simply won't be prepared for it.

Go ahead and tell your kids to try hard and be all they can possibly be...but don't instil in them some stupid philosophy that the world is easy, that employers are all friendly and will allow them a wide range of freedoms and way of expressing themselves, and basically ground them in the facts of life...that the world doesn't owe them anything at all...it's all about what you can make of it.

Throwing undisciplined kids straight out of school into a world full of discipline is going to end in heartbreak.

[SB076]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

Any discussion amongst employers will bring up the same thing again and again...a shockingly large number of young people entering the workforce simply cannot believe they have to start at the bottom and work their way up. The ones that accept this simple fact have a bright future ahead of them.
Some schools may have done away with winners and losers in everything from sports to exams, banned marking papers with red ink because it's "aggressive and threatening", but these are the very schools that, unless parents keep a close eye on their kids to guide them properly, will enter a workforce chock full of winners and losers, and they simply won't be prepared for it.

Go ahead and tell your kids to try hard and be all they can possibly be...but don't instil in them some stupid philosophy that the world is easy, that employers are all friendly and will allow them a wide range of freedoms and way of expressing themselves, and basically ground them in the facts of life...that the world doesn't owe them anything at all...it's all about what you can make of it.

Throwing undisciplined kids straight out of school into a world full of discipline is going to end in heartbreak.

My question would be what happened to this generation that bought about this type of behaviour? Obviously when I say generation it is a massive generalisation, there are people that don't fit the above descriptions, however it is interesting to note a large number do and that other generations have picked up on it.

I know a lot of teachers that feel they cant effectively communicate with parents due to guidelines etc on how they write reports, mark etc. Which to me is part of the problem.

Wonder how long until school sports faze out !st, 2nd and 3rd placings and replace them with participant award?.

[2011G6E]

Originally Posted by SB076

Wonder how long until school sports faze out !st, 2nd and 3rd placings and replace them with participant award?.

Some schools already are...others are banning red ink as it is "confrontational" and can "upset" children.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-children.html

Here's an interesting article from a teacher organisation about whether we are "setting kids up for failure" once they leave school and enter a world very much based on success and failure:
http://www.sstuwa.org.au/news/sstuwa-articles/190/8542

The colour red can symbolise many things. The positive attributes can denote success, happiness and excitement. Yet, red is a colour that can also represent anger, dominance and wrong doing. Some even say that the red pen that is so commonly used to mark students work is considered to be too confrontational and aggressive.
Instead, teachers are being encouraged to use a plethora of colours to mark work which are reasoned to be more calming for their students. The gradual change in marking techniques, which originated in the US, has flowed on to Australia, with Queensland adopting the marking guidelines in 2008. The Queensland’s Government’s introduction of these education kits, warns teachers to not use red ink as it can damage the student’s psychology. The Good Mental Health Rocks kit, which costs nearly $3000, has been distributed to many state schools in the region.
The elimination of red pens, the removal of negative comments on a child’s report - no matter what the results or the behaviour standards and no longer using a cross alongside an incorrect answer, only a question mark or dot - are just some of the new marking techniques. After speaking with teachers and parents on the topic some alarm bells began to ring. Are we setting our children up for failure? Will they ever begin to learn right from wrong?
This no failure approach is also something that is filtered from a University level. Murdoch University Dean of Education, Judy MacCallum says, herself, along with the majority of her colleagues have disregarded the use of red pens and pick and choose which errors to select in particular when work is handed in by the education students.
Judy says the University works hard to instil positive teaching techniques in their students studying education. It is based on encouraging a safe environment for students to make mistakes. Ultimately you want students to take risks and mistakes should be seen as an opportunity for their learning.

Kids must know about failure...if you just keep telling them that failure is something that doesn't exist and that they should only ever hear positives, then I'm sure that will work spiffingly well in the real world...

Not to mention articles like this one that show what happens when we cotton wool wrap kids....
http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/q...-1226518484111

PRINCIPALS say children are becoming too frightened "to have a go at things" as teachers are forced to do risk assessments for activities including painting and drawing.
Principals say common sense has been abandoned in "the litigious age", with society's risk aversion starting to have a visible impact on children.
They warn risk-taking is "absolutely crucial to learning and development", with some students visibly frightened of making mistakes.
Tiggy, handstands and running on bitumen have all been banned in some schoolyards over the past few years.
State schools now keep a Curriculum Activity Register recording all approved high and extreme-risk activities and some medium ones.
In one of the 134 Curriculum Activity Risk Assessments (CARA), painting and drawing is considered as dangerous as ice skating.

You set them up for a future where they cannot understand..."visibly frightened"...by the concept of making mistakes, when in "the bad old days" kids learned by failing. If you protect them from the very idea that they can fail, then when they eventually do fail (as all humans do at some time or another), they can actually be psychologically hurt and cannot understand how this can happen to them.

Here's another interesting list of banned things around the world in schools...so it isn't just here that things have gone off the rails...
http://edudemic.com/2012/06/10-surpr...-school-today/

Kids need guidance, they need limits, boundaries, and to know that they aren't the top of the food chain of authority. They need to know that they don't get anything for nothing in the world, and that failure is an option. They should be made well aware that life wasn't meant to be easy, and usually isn't.
That doesn't mean you don't love them and care for them and nurture them and protect them from harm as best you can...but it does mean you be realistic with them.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by SB076

Wonder how long until school sports faze out !st, 2nd and 3rd placings and replace them with participant award?.

Already gone from my kids primary school!

[2011G6E]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Already gone from my kids primary school!

That's really sad. If there is no prize at the end, no cherry on top of the cake to aim for, then why would you try harder? If everyone is perfectly equal and there are no winners and losers, how are you supposed to get it into your head that if you work harder and try harder, you can "win" and do better than the guy who doesn't try as hard.

The same in life...welfare for unemployed people treads a fine line between supporting people who genuinely are looking for work and are just down on their luck, and handing money to people who are quite happy to sit back and say "Why work? I'm going to get supported anyway"...you want to give an incentive to people to do better, but you don't want to make that incentive so low (or non-existent in the case of "no winners or losers") that there is nothing there to push people to do better.
Also in your working life...if everyone is equal at a workplace, why try harder? At my last job they discussed, briefly, a program where the people who knew how to operate the most machines on the production line would get a progressively higher and higher hourly rate of pay. The people who were quite happy to sit back and bother to learn only one or maybe two machines complained. The idea was scrapped..."unfair to the guys who only know how to work one machine".
Too bad...that's life. If you don't put in the effort, that's your fault. However, if there is no incentive and society is quite happy to let you sit back and cruise along getting equally rewarded as the guys who push and try hard, then that's just wrong.

Imagine car shows where the guy who turns up with a ratty old dunger gets rewarded equally as well the guys who spent a fortune on a pristine show car, because if we didn't give them all a trophy, it would be unfair and make the people who didn't try harder feel "excluded"...

[KIWI-1]

Is smacking your child still socially acceptable?
http://cairnsnicole.wordpress.com/20...ly-acceptable/
Interesting how the two sisters have/have not smacked their kids.

[SB076]

Originally Posted by KIWI-1

Is smacking your child still socially acceptable?
http://cairnsnicole.wordpress.com/20...ly-acceptable/
Interesting how the two sisters have/have not smacked their kids.

I think the authorities need to stay out of it and that they are responsible for the social decay we are experiencing. We are getting taught we can do anything, express ourselves however we want, take no responsibility for our actions - it doesnt matter what you do, we will find an excuse for you.

My children get smacked., but I must admit I don't smack them in public.