Ford & Holden rivalry

[K_Man]

Originally Posted by rick69

Because a group of motoring journalists started a campaign with the public to write letters of demand to Holden to keep the V8 alive.
It was called the V8's till 98 campaign.

I thought it would of been because Ford took market leadership with the XE, and then dropped the v8 just as people were falling in love with big cars again. Holden, being stuck with the Opel platform, perhaps kept the v8 to try sway people away from the big Fords. 'Here's a big car with a biggish engine, here's a car that's not as big but it has a bigger engine.' Hmmm, i know which way i would of gone :

Although having said that, motoring journalists about 5 years later were wondering why a v8 was needed in the Commodore lineup when they had the 3.0L turbo. Thank you Holden for sticking with it.

[FNQracing]

Originally Posted by johnydep

The Commodore is being exported in Monaro & Statesman form, a very limited market.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I beleive Holden are selling much much more Stato's in the Middle East than here. Its a huge market apparently.

[FNQracing]

Holden nearly went bust in the 80's. It was so close. The 90's and 00's were very kind to Holden. During this time they served a few blows to Ford, these were:

1. The Gen III V8 - Ford are still catching up, now Holden have the 6.0L. Game over. That hurt Ford dearly. Hence the half baked "performance" cars based on the 5.0L Windsor. The stroked Windsor was a different story, but low low volume seller. Ford waited eons too long to tickle the Windsor, and when it finally did, the boat had long left. The present BOSS is great, but the BA is a heavy car.

2. Monaro - whilst not a big seller, a huge image builder.

3. Supercharged V6 - no longer did ford have a quickest 6.

4. VT - yes, VT shared most mechanicals from the VS, but when Ford brings out AU, and its as ugly as sin, it was doomed against the attractive VT.

Ford had the AU. BUT, whilst we all thought Ford were asleep at the wheel, yes, the tides have turned a little. Ford hit back with the Turbo 6 and the Territory. Both comendable efforts. Ford are still struggling with image somewhat.

Add to that, people still see Falcons as Taxi's (which is bad for image) and the Commodore is seen mainly as HWP (good image).

Looks like Ford have the SUV market wrapped up, and the Hot 6 market. Holden, as predicted, will be king of the V8's for the forseeable future. VE will be a ripper I'm sure. BUT, they have to get the HFV6 sorted out. So far it has not been the revelation we all thought.

Both Ford and Holden need to get their qaulity sorted out. Whilst they've made huge improvements, they are nowhere near the Japs or certain Euro outfits.

[VZSS250]

The V8s til 98 campaign epitomises the difference between the Holden supporters and the Ford supporters. When fuel prices were skyrocketing in the mid 80s Ford buyers flocked to their alloy head six cylinders and forgot all about the GT heritage, while the Holden buyers were busy signing petitions to have the V8 forever.

It is thanks to those true V8 enthousiasts that we now have the great cars of today. While I love the BA V8s, it is said that the Ford boys dont recognise and appreciate the efforts of the V8s til 98 campaign.

[DJM83]

Originally Posted by FFOracing

Not to the extent in which they did. AU failed becuase it was (and is) the ugliest car ever to be penned here in Oz. And that gawd awful interior just made people want to throw up.

Naturally, no-one wanted to be seen dead in one and sales floundered. MEanwhile, the Commodore was going from strength to strength. If Ford did not do as good a job on BA and Terry, they would have been in Mitsubishi's shoes. Big Trouble.

Ford now need to completely rid itself of the AU styling, which still exists in BA to a large degree, and never ever look back.

They need to fix their performance image too. Holden has and is king of the local V8's. Just look at the number of young guys wanting Commodores vs Falcons.

Wats wrong with the AU m8 AUI yeah ugly as a pig in (besides XR)
AUII improved looks very comparable to equivlent Holden
AUIII very nice much improved
XR's in all series AU were the pick of the bunch besides T series the XR's got rid of SAD mouth headlights and poxy dash

[FNQracing]

Originally Posted by VZSS250

The V8s til 98 campaign epitomises the difference between the Holden supporters and the Ford supporters. When fuel prices were skyrocketing in the mid 80s Ford buyers flocked to their alloy head six cylinders and forgot all about the GT heritage, while the Holden buyers were busy signing petitions to have the V8 forever.

It is thanks to those true V8 enthousiasts that we now have the great cars of today. While I love the BA V8s, it is said that the Ford boys dont recognise and appreciate the efforts of the V8s til 98 campaign.

During those years, Ford practically lost a whole generation of car enthusiasts, which still effects them to this very day. What was there in the Ford stable in the mid 80's, early 90's for a teenager like me to drool over? Nothing. Zero. A whole decade lost. Everyone else was into HDT Commodores and Brock. Ford was a complete non-event. And remained so until the mid 90's or there abouts.

Like I said, still effects them today. What kind of car does a young teenager go out to buy? A hot 4 or a V8 Commodore. The Ford scene is very small in that age bracket. Ford's aint cool and for good reason. They dropped the V8!

[Psycho Chicken]

Weren't Holden a few hours away from dropping the V8?

[rick69]

Originally Posted by 00VenomXR

Wats wrong with the AU m8 AUI yeah ugly as a pig in (besides XR)

You may be biased because you own one, but the majority of people see the AU as a total styling disaster inside and out, whether it be series 1, 2 or 3, and across the range (including XR's).

[rick69]

Originally Posted by Psycho Chicken

Weren't Holden a few hours away from dropping the V8?

I don't know if it was a few hours away, but it was very close..... It was the V8's till 98 campaign that stopped them.

[mcflux]

Where;s the vote box for "none of the above!"?

At the moment the customer is the winner, no matter which camp they're part of :evilking:

-Dave-

[FNQracing]

Originally Posted by 00VenomXR

Wats wrong with the AU m8 AUI yeah ugly as a pig in (besides XR)
AUII improved looks very comparable to equivlent Holden
AUIII very nice much improved
XR's in all series AU were the pick of the bunch besides T series the XR's got rid of SAD mouth headlights and poxy dash

Ford did improve a little on the looks of the AU. But only a little. AU XR's were a good car, just ugly. The XR6 was no longer the standout its was in ED-EF-EL guise, and Ford left it too long to bring out the 220 XR8. By that time, many got tired of waiting and bought a Commodore instead. I was one of them.

[mcflux]

Originally Posted by Psycho Chicken

Weren't Holden a few hours away from dropping the V8?

Actually I think the V8 may have been dropped for a couple of months when the first VLs came out, due to changes needed for unleaded motors? I might be wrong here...

-Dave-

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by Ghia5L

Actually I think the V8 may have been dropped for a couple of months when the first VLs came out, due to changes needed for unleaded motors? I might be wrong here...

-Dave-

Yep, you're right. Hence the birth of the VL Turbo. Holden went to Nissan, and put RB30E's in the basic Commodores, and used the RB30ET as their performance offering until they developed the EFI 304 for unleaded petrol. Ultimately, the VL Turbo was faster then every stock VL V8 except the HSV Plastic Pig Walkinshaw anyway.

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by FFOracing

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I beleive Holden are selling much much more Stato's in the Middle East than here. Its a huge market apparently.

Well with a figure of 1,659 Holden Statesman & Caprice May 2005 Year-to-date, it's not that hard to do.

When I say 'a limited market', what I mean is, that the Statesman/Caprice/Monaro are a luxury brand, Luxury sales are hard because of a lot of competition in the sedan market. Besides, the Middle East is Mercedes country.

Whereas the Territory can be sold in low cost standard form and a luxury model, because it is a totaly different market. The SUV market is still growing with the right type of vehicle. The competition is limited.

[MethodX]

Its not only the middle East.
Theres USA, Brazil, South Africa, China and South Korea.

Territory is only going to South Africa so far in small numbers.

getting a bit ahead of yourself there.

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by MethodX

.......
Territory is only going to South Africa so far in small numbers.

getting a bit ahead of yourself there.

Maybe, but........

First of all, the territory isn't really a SUV, it is a Crossover.
http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosins...A01-236219.htm

A crossover is loosely defined as a vehicle that has the rugged look and cargo space of an SUV but sits on a car-like underbody rather than on a rigid truck frame.

Secondly, buyers of vehicles tastes are changing.

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2005/...?oneclick=true

Australian-made family cars are losing favour, write BOB JENNINGS and JOSHUA DOWLING.

Ford and Holden have defended weakening sales of the Falcon and Commodore and claim that Australia's two biggest-selling cars are far from dead. Sales of large sedans were down in the record month of January, when the rest of the industry was up 7.4 percent on January 2004, which kick-started last year's record run.

Ford Australia president Tom Gorman says while the market-share of large cars has declined their overall numbers are enough to make local manufacturing remain viable.

"Clearly buyer tastes are changing but there's still enough volume there to justify local manufacturing," Gorman says. "Our market-share may be declining but we are still building just as many cars; last year we had our biggest year ever out of the factory."

Last year, sales of large cars fell by almost 11 percent over the previous year, while sales of recreational vehicles increased by almost 15 percent.to 173,000 - only slightly behind the sales tally for large cars

Gorman says that is why the Territory recreational vehicle was so crucial to the Falcon's survival. "We make five vehicles off the Falcon platform, including the Territory, and that gives us the economies of scale to continue making all these products."

Thirdly, who is in a better position to prosper, in a changing market? Ford with the Falcon & Territory or Holden with the Commodore?

I'm not saying Holden are going to go broke, what I'm saying is that Ford are in the better position to take advantage of a world wide market that is looking for 'car-based "crossover" utility vehicles in coming years to grab a bigger slice of one of the fastest-growing vehicle segments'. Meaning; Ford & Holden will change positions, were Ford were floundering in the 90's & Holden prosperous, Ford will take the lead in the next 3 - 5 years.
http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosins...A01-236219.htm

crossovers are where the market is heading.

"This is the fastest-growing segment in the industry and we expect that to continue," said George Pipas, Ford's chief sales analyst.

That's why Ford, GM and Chrysler are planning to attack the category with new entries.

In 1995, crossover vehicles accounted for less than 1 percent of U.S. auto sales, largely because there were so few available. This year, sales are on pace to reach almost 12 percent of the market, according to J.D. Power and Associates' Power Information Network.

Large Falcons & Commodores will be around for a long time, but their profitability will keep dropping.
New ideas are required, and Ford have done it with the Territory. What does Holden have, the Commodore. I suppose they could become the Australian version of Mercedes & BMW & specialise in luxury sedans to acheive the profits required for continual development & investment in model upgrades, for a dwindling market.
Toyota didn't become the worlds number 1 car manufacturer with large vehicles, it's the small vehicle that did it. Maybe the Commodore will get small again

[DRU842]

Ford do not have the local production capacity to match GM in a sales shoot-out; end of story.

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by DRU842

Ford do not have the local production capacity to match GM in a sales shoot-out; end of story.

GMH built up the ability to produce so much locally with years of being on top. Give Ford a chance, they'd been losing money until the BA came out. And they spent a total of $1,000,000,000 on BA & Territory together. That's alot of money for a company that profits in the $300 million per year range (Ford Australia, not Global).

[xyute]

1. I hear the guys that designed the AU are now working for Mitsubishi and are designing Magna's ( the epitomy of ugliness )

2. I'm led to believe that the mighty Leyland P76 is the only truly Aussie car ever built. (prepares to dogde bullets)

[XA-Coupe]

Originally Posted by VZSS250

The V8s til 98 campaign epitomises the difference between the Holden supporters and the Ford supporters. When fuel prices were skyrocketing in the mid 80s Ford buyers flocked to their alloy head six cylinders and forgot all about the GT heritage, while the Holden buyers were busy signing petitions to have the V8 forever.

It is thanks to those true V8 enthousiasts that we now have the great cars of today. While I love the BA V8s, it is said that the Ford boys dont recognise and appreciate the efforts of the V8s til 98 campaign.

The V8 till 98 was an illustration of the power of a decent marketing campaign .. but not by Holden... but by magazines like Motor. I remember the era clearly and Holden were about to do the same stupid thing that Ford did. They were a bee's dick from doing it so I wouldn't go and blow Holden's trumpet about that episode. They were as convinced as Ford that the V8 was a dead duck, it was just fortunate that the journos saw an opporunity and seized it. It paid off well for Holden in the long run.
Remember, Ford beancounters initiated this, Ford supporters have never really forgiven them for this .. I know I haven't, particularly when I hear rumours that the same thing was considered recently.. although it doesn't look like it'll happen, the fact it was even considered bothers me.
One Holden marketing slogan from that era still rings true .. " There's nothing Quite like a V8"

[rick69]

So why didn't anyone start up a campaign when Ford decided to drop the V8?

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by VZSS250

The V8s til 98 campaign epitomises the difference between the Holden supporters and the Ford supporters. When fuel prices were skyrocketing in the mid 80s Ford buyers flocked to their alloy head six cylinders and forgot all about the GT heritage, while the Holden buyers were busy signing petitions to have the V8 forever.
...............

Yes, Ford dropping the V8 was a mistake, they mistakenly thought that Australia's first Fuel Injected six (which had the same power as a V8) would be enough for the Aussie market. After all the V8 only sold to a niche market.

Now back to Commodores :Up_to_som While Ford had problems with the niche V8 market, Holden execs were having sleepless nights as they watch Falcons outselling Commodores 3 - 1.

Holden had thought that the oil shortages of the 70's would last for ever, so they dumped the big family cars, Kingswood, Premier, Monaro & lastly the Statesman. Thinking that the typical Aussie family would dump big cars for smaller models, and that is exactly what happened for one whole year. After that, fuel prices got better and Ford introduced the EFI engine, families couldn't fit into a car the size of a Torana, so Falcon become the No. 1 family car for 10 years.

Oh, almost forgot, the luxury market. Did Holden really think that the Commodore SLE could take the place of the Statesman, or that the SLE could compete against the Fairlane & LTD, come on fellas, what where you all smoking in the board room? e

Holden should be kissing the backsides of all the motoring magazines that pushed the V8 Till 98 campaign, because if Holden had dropped the V8 they wouldn't be here today.
Holden were in more strife tha Mitsubishi are in now, because they didn't have the support of their parent company like Mitsi have. Holden where saved by a Toyota/Holden/S.A. Government partnership.

Got another one for Holden; wagons till 2008 :
Commodore - A commissioned naval officer who ranks above a captain and below a rear admiral; the lowest grade of admiral

[M14A-Mclaren]

I would have checked a box saying something along the lines of alot of Holden fans been bandwagon supporters, especially people at my age just decide to pick Holden because it has a cooler image for some reason.

[Bossxr8]

There's another thing to add to the theory of the Commodore being on borrowed time, the decision by GM not to use the Zeta platform that Holden spent millions developing. The VE was originally supposed to be launched early next year, now Denny Mooney has come out and said it won't be until mid way through the year. Why the delay? The huge cost cutting that is required to cover the development costs. By not being able to spread development costs over millions of cars world wide, Holden have to bear the brunt. I'm sure Holden are trying to cut a heap of cost out of the VE, with the potential to affect quality, equipment levels etc. I'd imagine the VE will have a big price rise too. This is only a theory but the development dollars can't be shared around any more and the dollars have to come from somewhere.

[rick69]

It's all rumors and speculation at the moment.... We should just wait till next year before we start passing judgements or cooking up theories.

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

There's another thing to add to the theory of the Commodore being on borrowed time, the decision by GM not to use the Zeta platform that Holden spent millions developing. The VE was originally supposed to be launched early next year, now Denny Mooney has come out and said it won't be until mid way through the year. Why the delay? The huge cost cutting that is required to cover the development costs. By not being able to spread development costs over millions of cars world wide, Holden have to bear the brunt. I'm sure Holden are trying to cut a heap of cost out of the VE, with the potential to affect quality, equipment levels etc. I'd imagine the VE will have a big price rise too. This is only a theory but the development dollars can't be shared around any more and the dollars have to come from somewhere.

That's why there will be no VE wagon or Adventra till 2007, cost cutting.

I wonder how many private buyers will be buying VZ wagons & Adventra's while the VE sedans are being advertised, I can see the depreciation now :

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by scottishxc

And....whether we like it or not, both companies are really American anyway!!

There was a very interesting article written by the head designer of Jaguar. It was claimed that the similarities between the latest offerings from Jag bear rather more than a passing resemblance to the latest Aston.
Said designer was, previously, the head designer for Aston but the reason that the two cars looked the same was due to the regulations that both cars came under. They are 2 cars designed to do the same thing in the same marketplace and as they are both cutting it as finely as poss within these design laws, "tis small wonder they appear so similar.

Bear in mind that to the average person, Commys and Falcs both look so similar, and are just repmobiles and family transport......

I am playing Devils Advocate and I am a Ford fan but its my point of view!!

(Feel free to castigate me regarding the gearbox thingie as I'm not sure!)

the Jaguar & Aston look similar because they are built on the same platform.

Some people do think that the Commys & Falcons look similar, but this is not just about them , it's about the Territory.
I think it is ingenious how ford have modified the production line so that the Falcon & Territory can be built on one line. Costs are shared and production can fluctuate between both vehicles depending on demand.

What does the Commodore production line do when sedan sales go down for several months & the new Holden/Daewoo SUV sales go up?

I think Commodores down fall started with that dinner plate sized Lion badge on the grille :

[MethodX]

I find the attitude of some diehard Ford and Holden fans weird.
Both companies make the same kind of car.
Big rwd 6's and 8's

If bent on world domination Toyota had a big downfall you would think a lot of u would b happier or Honda.
I know I would.

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by MethodX

I find the attitude of some diehard Ford and Holden fans weird.
Both companies make the same kind of car.
Big rwd 6's and 8's

If bent on world domination Toyota had a big downfall you would think a lot of u would b happier or Honda.
I know I would.

It's called passion :

Besides there are some differences; V6 - I6, front & rear suspension set up - totally different, interior - no comparison, Territory - Adventra, nice sized blue oval badge - huge circled lion badge.

Annoyed yet :alien2: nah, I'm only joking.

Yes both companies are here for the long haul, I just thought I'd feed it a bit to the few Commodore guys that are trying to give the Territory a bad name :monkes:

EDIT: But all I have said is true and backed up with factual information & links.

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by sxywgn

Not as clever as admin with eit function

:togo: Your a clever one, aren't you