Holden cuts a shift...

[ourfoz]

Originally Posted by vztrt

Yes they are, yet the prius is still not selling all that well.

The Prius isn't an electric car, not the current model anyway. Its drivetrain still has the same burdens as any other commercially available car with no benefits to maintenance costs that electrics have.

Electric cars
1) Don't need engine oil changes, spark plugs or filters so are cheaper to service.
2) Don't need foreign sourced, price volatile liquid pumped into them to run.
3) Have all their available torque from 1 RPM.
4) Don't create a blanket of muck in the atmosphere where they congregate.

GM have already said they'd like the Volt in a full electric version. They've clearly worked out what the public want - 15 years too late. EV1 came out in 96, imagine what they'd have now if they'd spent the last 13 years innovating. Sure as eggs wouldn't be where they are now.

[cool65]

C'mon - couldn't HSV do something with this. It could be a bathurst edition "Mt. Panoramic" fully with 20's
http://images.google.com.au/images?h...q=0&oq=skoda+r

Lets all get behind this
Aw -it's the 3rd of April, isn't it

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by ourfoz

The Prius isn't an electric car, not the current model anyway. Its drivetrain still has the same burdens as any other commercially available car with no benefits to maintenance costs that electrics have.

Electric cars
1) Don't need engine oil changes, spark plugs or filters so are cheaper to service.
2) Don't need foreign sourced, price volatile liquid pumped into them to run.
3) Have all their available torque from 1 RPM.
4) Don't create a blanket of muck in the atmosphere where they congregate.

GM have already said they'd like the Volt in a full electric version. They've clearly worked out what the public want - 15 years too late. EV1 came out in 96, imagine what they'd have now if they'd spent the last 13 years innovating. Sure as eggs wouldn't be where they are now.

If you think you'll get an electric car that had a large range in the next 5 years then keep dreaming.

The batteries don't have the capacity to go for long ranges, also the infrastructure to recharge these batteries isn't there in high demand. 15 years sound more realistic then 5 years.

[imugli]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Toyota Oz's production facility here simply a tax dodge?

Toyota Oz buy parts from Toyota subsidiary companies at inflated prices and writes the purchases of as expenses. Export as many cars as possible at a loss (or minimal profit), therefore not paying any tax, and ship the profits offshore through the subsidiaries...

Hasn't this been going on for years???

[ourfoz]

Originally Posted by vztrt

If you think you'll get an electric car that had a large range in the next 5 years then keep dreaming.

The batteries don't have the capacity to go for long ranges, also the infrastructure to recharge these batteries isn't there in high demand. 15 years sound more realistic then 5 years.

You're right. Most people don't need a large range though. The figures are something like 80% of people don't travel more than 100K's per day. These trips can all be done easily with an electric car. Families will probably have a commuter electric car and another type of fuel for longer trips. My original point is car companies should have seen this coming. Toyota and GM did as they already had full electric models yet they canned them. GM are to blame for their own demise. If they had products that people wanted to buy the GFC wouldn't be affecting the auto industry as much as it is.

If Mitsubishi had the iMiev or Toyota had a full electric Prius today, I'd have one. 40, 50 grand - sold. Lots of others would too and people in the automotive industry wouldn't be in such a huge pickle. Instead everyone is hanging on and waiting for something to come out they want to buy.

[Redmund]

Originally Posted by imugli

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Toyota Oz's production facility here simply a tax dodge?

Toyota Oz buy parts from Toyota subsidiary companies at inflated prices and writes the purchases of as expenses. Export as many cars as possible at a loss (or minimal profit), therefore not paying any tax, and ship the profits offshore through the subsidiaries...

Hasn't this been going on for years???

We have one of Toyota's accountants among us.

Odd to think you have any idea of what and how Toyota runs it's business if you have nothing to do with them. To suggest a tax dodge on a public forum is foolish.

[sgt_doofey]

Originally Posted by ourfoz

Electric cars
4) Don't create a blanket of muck in the atmosphere where they congregate.

But they do have a mass of batteries that need disposing of once they are of no use. What about the impact of that in the whole scheme of things?
Having said that, a hydrogen powered car would probably be the longer term solution, if the drought breaks that is.

[phillyc]

Originally Posted by sgt_doofey

But they do have a mass of batteries that need disposing of once they are of no use. What about the impact of that in the whole scheme of things?
Having said that, a hydrogen powered car would probably be the longer term solution, if the drought breaks that is.

Batteries can be almost completely recycled. Most people seem to forget that.

[phillyc]

Originally Posted by vztrt

If you think you'll get an electric car that had a large range in the next 5 years then keep dreaming.

The batteries don't have the capacity to go for long ranges, also the infrastructure to recharge these batteries isn't there in high demand. 15 years sound more realistic then 5 years.

No need to dream.

http://www.leftlanenews.com/tesla-model-s.html

Tesla has yet to announce an official on-sale date for the Model S, but the sporty EV sedan will retail from $49,900 after a $7500 tax credit when it finally rolls into dealerships. Tesla says Model S customers will be able to order the car with a 160-mile, 220-mile, or 300-mile battery pack. It’s not clear how the price will be affected by the range options.

Despite its 3,825 pound curb weight and single-speed transmission, the Model S can make the sprint from zero to 60 mph in 5.6 seconds, crossing the quarter-mile stripe in 14 seconds flat. Give the Model S a longer track and it will top out at 120 mph.

[phillyc]

Back on topic.

General Motors Holden have proven to be as slow and unresponsive as their parent company General Motors in responding to the downturn...

Ford copped heaps of flack for trimming jobs and output to match demand last year.

Holden do it and they are portrayed by the media as 'saving jobs'. Great if that job will still allow you to pay your bills.

[Nikked]

Originally Posted by ourfoz

Electric cars
1) Don't need engine oil changes, spark plugs or filters so are cheaper to service.
2) Don't need foreign sourced, price volatile liquid pumped into them to run.
3) Have all their available torque from 1 RPM.
4) Don't create a blanket of muck in the atmosphere where they congregate.

.

1) Until the electrics screw up, also electric motor bushes can fail, and at a high price
2) But use foreign sorced parts any way
3)they only good thing!
4)But use 'orrible chemicals in batteries, and use power from coal fueled stations anyway...

[OZQUAD44]

Originally Posted by ourfoz

Electric cars
1) Don't need engine oil changes, spark plugs or filters so are cheaper to service.
2) Don't need foreign sourced, price volatile liquid pumped into them to run.
3) Have all their available torque from 1 RPM.
4) Don't create a blanket of muck in the atmosphere where they congregate.

I'm not against electric cars but you forgot to mention:
1) The contents of electric car batteries, are as toxic as all the components you mentioned above. They need to be managed just like waste oil needs to be.
2) Where does electricity come from.... coal, dams, nuclear?, yeah just move that yuckkie pollution away from where everyone can see it, flood thousands of hectares of virgin forest, or build a radioactive time bomb to hang over our children's future, and electric cars make a good case.
3) How long does an electric car battery bank last, 5, 10, 15 years? How much are these batteries to replace. Far more than the value of the car in five years I bet.
4) Range and cost has already been mentioned.

I can see a case for electric cars, particularly if you could plug your car in whilst at work. But they don't come without their own environmental costs and they are not the golden bullet.

Alternative fuels are where car makers seem to be heading, ethanol, hydrogen, etc. I for one thing that E85 and bio fuels (renewable and home grown) are the way to go, but only time will tell.

[ourfoz]

Arnie says it best http://www.linktv.org/video/3280

I doubt anyone can argue against his logic.

[Falc'man]

I knew their blimp would bust.

[Buzz Box]

Yeah I think thats the point the commuter car or the 2nd car which is now like the focus's and fiesta's would be your electrics and still have the falcons and FPV's etc

[imugli]

Originally Posted by Redmund

We have one of Toyota's accountants among us.

Odd to think you have any idea of what and how Toyota runs it's business if you have nothing to do with them. To suggest a tax dodge on a public forum is foolish.

It was 2004 but here you go...

See Here

Mods, please feel free to remove my previous post if you deem I've possibly compromised my or your position.

[redranga]

How are Holden going to build a 4cyl car here and make a profit from it? They pay their plebs far too much to be competitive.

Currently Holden imports its small 4cyl cars from the Daewoo plant that they bought, because the labour is cheap there. These cars although built cheaply it isnt reflected in the price of the car. They now plan to build a 4cyl car here to save them, despite paying the plebs that build the cars far too much.

Why do people that work in the car industry expect big payouts? If your working at most places and they go belly up you would consider yourself lucky if you get your holidays paid out eg Ansett.

[phillyc]

Originally Posted by Nikked

1) Until the electrics screw up, also electric motor bushes can fail, and at a high price
2) But use foreign sorced parts any way
3)they only good thing!
4)But use 'orrible chemicals in batteries, and use power from coal fueled stations anyway...

1. The technology used is brushless.
2. Not much different to importing engines / gearboxes.
3. No tailpipe emissions. Burning coal is generally cleaner and more efficient.
4. Batteries can be recycled. Consider the amount of oil used to service a car over its lifetime.

Current account deficit would still reduce anyway. Majority of petrol / diesel in Australia is imported. This bill will reach a frightening $30B within a few more years. I'd rather keep Aussie miners in jobs, than pay money to Middle Eastern Shieks.

[phillyc]

Originally Posted by Falc'man

I knew their blimp would bust.

LMAO!

[snappy]

Originally Posted by Redmund

If it weren't so expensive to employ people in this country, the effects of this crisis wouldn't be as hard felt.

Soon there will be no manufacturing in this country because of the high costs to employ workers. Thank the unions for that. That will probably upset a few of you here, but the fact remains - it's cheaper to produce a good in China or India than it is here.

Those relying on manufacturing jobs should upgrade their skills portfolio.

Of coarse its cheaper but if its so good over there move there . Upside is you dont need to take your shoes of when you walk inside your house your floor is the same as the dirt outside.

Maybe we should all just buy a bag of rice a week and live of that .
Germany is a massive manufacturing country and the wages are really high too . So the question i would be asking is what are they doing lets do that instead of dropping our wages to increase corperations profit margins .
Dont worry i do thank the unions im not towing my trailer buy push bike to work .

[Dr Smith]

Originally Posted by Redmund

We have one of Toyota's accountants among us.

Odd to think you have any idea of what and how Toyota runs it's business if you have nothing to do with them. To suggest a tax dodge on a public forum is foolish.

I think the correct term is "international price transference" and the ATO did investigate a while ago...it seemed to coincide with Toyota's big profit jumps recently as prior to this they made very little profit compared to the volumes sold and especially compared to Ford and Holden.

[barbarian]

Sorry to hear about peoples pay cut but nonetheless..

this is good news for me.. the more Holden suffers the more satisfaction i get

[mik]

Originally Posted by phillyc

Batteries can be almost completely recycled. Most people seem to forget that.

yeah at what cost? have you bought a rechargeable aa recently ......not cheap.

[greenfoam]

You guys that are dissing electric cars are behind the times, electric cars will not only be more effcient but outperform petrol cars in a very short time. Sometimes dismiddes technoligy gets a second shot once the time is right. Two stroke motorcrossers were dead/banned from competition, now two strokes are comming back (with direct injection). Competition RC cars went nitro powered in the late 90s but in the last two years electrics have become so powerful they now make nitro cars look like they are standing still. It's the time of the eletric motor. I don't think daily cars will be electric all that soon due to alot of reasons not technoligy related (oil problems). but I wouldn't be at all suprised if the fastest exotic car in the world is electric powered within a few years. To make the houshold car electric powered you would really want a good solar setup at home so you can charge the car off a battery bank over night. The good thing about having all that power in your car is that you can add the car to the battery reserve to power your house etc. It's pretty handy tech.

Solar is allready pretty advanced I know quite a few people that are not on the grid with solar only.

As for Holden, well they only have themself to blame. No one wants a 2 ton tank for a daily driver, those days are long gone. They allways made smaller/lighter/better handling "large" cars, it was the Holden's way to do things and it worked, they had great success through the Torana and early Commodore days. Then they tried to play catch the fat Falcon and they ended up making fatter/slower more fuel hungry cars and now what when have is basically two Falcons for sale neither of them are going to be arond much longer. The only difference is that Ford have a European division that is on the ball and will get them out of trouble no problem

[Gobes32]

Originally Posted by greenfoam

As for Holden, well they only have themself to blame. No one wants a 2 ton tank for a daily driver, those days are long gone. They allways made smaller/lighter/better handling "large" cars, it was the Holden's way to do things and it worked, they had great success through the Torana and early Commodore days. Then they tried to play catch the fat Falcon and they ended up making fatter/slower more fuel hungry cars and now what when have is basically two Falcons for sale neither of them are going to be arond much longer. The only difference is that Ford have a European division that is on the ball and will get them out of trouble no problem

But Commodore is still number one selling car in Oz, and up until 18 months ago they were working 6-7 days a week to keep up with demand. The industry is suffering due to the GFC, even Toyota, who makes small cars is in the proverbial. Holden's main issue at the moment is that they are owned by GM, and GM are not looking at a bright future. It is unfair to blame Holden for the trouble they find themselves in because they have been, and still are, producing Australia's most popular car.

I personally think that the main issue facing auto manufacturers is that there is too many of them........

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Gobes32

But Commodore is still number one selling car in Oz, .

exactly! a lot of people, mostly greenies, keep banging on about how the big 2 aussie car makers are making cars that no one wants and yet they still manage to sell more of them than most other type of car on the planet.

people who say these comments obviously haven't driven or taken notice of where the industry has come in the last few years.

both 6 cyl cars offer exceptional economy for a large car with the falcon getting another tweak to bring it inline with some 4cyl cars.

people aren't looking to sell their large cars and buy small cheap cars. the media is saying thats what people are doing but sales figures don't lie. before this GFC hit and when petrol was $1.60L the biggest growing sector was suv/4wd's.

[Nikked]

Originally Posted by Gobes32

But Commodore is still number one selling car in Oz, and up until 18 months ago they were working 6-7 days a week to keep up with demand...

but yet there was 18000 unsold VE commodores around the world, and dealers trying to shift floor stock?

[Windsor220]

Commodore may be number 1 but Falcon sales arent good. Less than 2000 units last month.

[prydey]

the whole market is down, not just large cars. there is also a lot more variety and range on the market now.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by prydey

people aren't looking to sell their large cars and buy small cheap cars. the media is saying thats what people are doing but sales figures don't lie. before this GFC hit and when petrol was $1.60L the biggest growing sector was suv/4wd's.

Bingo. Large car sales were moving over to SUV's.