Why do we pay more for premium fuel?

[irish2]

Originally Posted by kinksta

My G6E turbo runs perfectly fine on 91. Use it most of the time.

At the moment I'm trying premiumax (100) from liberty and still the same. I went to get Ultimate (98) today but the price has gone up 20c compared to yesterday.

Don't you love the price cycle!?

The cycle is almost identicle, week in week out. Just learn when the cheaper days are.

[ltd]

Originally Posted by RAREV8

I run E10 in my G6 all the time and have racked up 60+k this year with not one issue at all.
My older V8's have always used BP 98 / Shell 100 RON (no noticeable gain) or Mobil 98. Anything less than this and pinging is a real issue unless i add an octane booster.
Most modern cars (G6) are designed to run perfectly well on E10 and I have never had an issue with E10 or any 91 RON fuel in any of my new cars (5 in the last 5 years)
Really interesting to know that the octane deteriorates over time- good info!

Is yours a G6 or a G6 Turbo?

[XBROO]

Originally Posted by yanknbank

It costs the the oil companies a fraction of a cent to refine their product from 91 to 98 octane. I reflect on this every time I pump 98 PULP into the G6ET and pay an extra 15/20 cents per litre for the warm fuzzy feeling it gives me.
Ripped off ? Maybe, but not as bad as what one is asked to pay for avgas. Rip-off indeed.

p.s. .... There's 98 PULP and then there's 98 PULP. I'd been filling up with 98 PULP from United for quite some time and awhile ago tried 98 PULP Vortex from BP.
The difference and superiority of the BP blend was siginificant and noticed immediately. The pick up in performance was suprising and definitely a lot smoother with a more fluid feel to the way the engine was delivering it's power.
I think I've said elsewhere on these forums that it didn't matter what fuel was being used or where it came from, they were pretty much all the same. I was wrong.
Well done BP. Still not sure about the price though.

Try Mobil 8000 you'll be surprised again.

[JimNiki]

yanknbank ...no disrespect intended at all.

You write very eloquently.
You remind me one of those writers who write for home theatre magazines trying to describe the experience of listening to a great pair of speakers or a wine expert giving commentary on a particular crop of grapes...

I was informed and entertained at the same time ...I trust you aren't wasting your talents just on this forum ...< this post has no traces of sarcasm> seriously!

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by irish2

The cycle is almost identicle, week in week out. Just learn when the cheaper days are.

This only works in Capital cities, us Bush folk just pay top dollar all the time.

[Matt P]

Ask Smithy the blokes a tool who relys on everone else to solve problems then claims victory himself. Of course there is a difference ask anyone who drives a LS focus they ping like hell on regular. The guy has no idea.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by Matt P

Ask Smithy the blokes a tool who relys on everone else to solve problems then claims victory himself. Of course there is a difference ask anyone who drives a LS focus they ping like hell on regular. The guy has no idea.

It shows the quality of cars guide...hell the Herald Sun is nothing more then a tabloid mag.

[pod66]

ive had my territory turbo tuned using caltex vortex, did a trip recently and i used bp and it pinged its head off at wot, put vortex back in, no more pinging, go figure!!

[mik]

Originally Posted by burnz

your not thinking of the old moth balls/ camphor blocks are you??

yes they do work provided they are made of naptholene..

the old moth balls in diesel used to give more horsepower, my uncle had an engine he just rebuilt come back a short time later with blown engine..................... too many mothballs , but they reckon it was pulling like a train b4 it died.

[mik]

its pretty obviouse some fuels are`nt what they are purported to be, i was the other side of town a couple of months ago and had to fill up at a small independant , i was also much lower on fuel than i like to be, i put the good stuff in as always, a very short time later my henry was pinking its guts out,(make that big rattly sound under load), most upsetting, i wont be going back to that servo.

[dannyhilton]

Funnily enough I'm always saying I either got a good batch of 98RON or a bad batch. One week I think my car is flying like a rocket, the next tank I'm left wondering why I payed the extra over 95RON. I can notice this in my Fiesta, and always just thought it was the cars tune or the weather more than anything. My FG Falcon however seems happy on 98RON all the time. So maybe the lesser powered Fiesta is showing the signs of older fuel and the Falcon, being much more powerful, doesn't show the signs of older fuel anywhere near as much?

As for the fuel it's self, I don't notice any major power gains in the Falcon using 98RON, the Fiesta however feels sluggish with 91RON. Fuel economy is too hard to gauge as I drive different places all the time.

[WMD351]

Jeez I hate Smithy (Commodore driving labor voting Collingwood supporting freak) but anyway a while back he did a story on storing your car and "claimed" regular unleaded in the tank would go off after about 2 - 3 months and PULP, I think he said should last for 9 - 12 months.
And whats with the price cycle lately? It's all over the shop, the majors are really turning the screws on the independents down here in Mexico and once they're gone...

[MITCHAY]

My car is rated at 98. It can get by on 95 if need be but watch the knock sensor go nuts on an ECU reader, you certainly can't thrash it hard and not notice the difference even by feel. This being a stock car too

[TheInterceptor]

E10 is utter rubbish, worst fuel consuption ever.
91 is average.
95 i dont bother with
98 is awesome, fuel consumtion is great compared to the others, just got roughly 100kms on one quarter. Dont recall it doing that ever....

So comparing E10 (worst) to 98 (best), oh well it doesnt compare.

[Romulus]

Originally Posted by AussieAV

Interesting about fuel loosing its octane rating over time.
Just how quick does it happen?
Are we talking a couple of points per week or is it quicker/slower than that?
Would it mean that if a car requiring 98 only does low kms you'd be better off doing regular 1/2 or 1/4 tank fills, rather than complete fills every 2-3 weeks?

From memory the higher octane fuels have a greater content of exotic aromatic hydrocarbons. Leave them exposed to the environment too long and they evaporate, reducing the octane of the fuel. Lower octane fuels have a higher calorific value than high octane fuels which generally provide better fuel economy than a high octane fuel. The flip side to that is they have the least resistance to detonation. You're better off buying the quantity of fuel you need and use it as quickly as possible as opposed to filling the tank and having it sit there for 3-4 weeks. A busy site will usually refill it's tanks every 2-3 days so the product is always fresh.

My brand new FG F6 was 2/3 filled with regular unleaded when I picked it up. It pinged that badly at one stage the engine forced a limp mode situation, almost reducing boost to nothing. I drove the car to empty the tank then refilled it with 98 octane fuel. Engine runs smoother and revs cleaner.

Oil companies have minimum fuel standards and garantees for the different products they sell and take their fuel standards very seriously. Contaminated fuels are 99% of the time caused by site issues i.e. contaminated tanks, faulty filters etc. BP in WA pulled Ultimate Diesel from it's product line up for almost 12 months due to a refinery issue - they won't allow an inferior product to hit the market.

I work in the fuel industry as a subcontractor. The oil companies spend big bucks ensuring tanks, lines, pumps etc are maintained.

BP Ultimate technical data sheet http://www.tds.bp.com.au/pdf%5C5556_M98ULv2.pdf

BP Ultimate MSDS http://www.msds.bp.com.au/msds.aspx?msdsno=02791-AU

Note the storage conditions for Ultimate is up to 1 year when stored correctly. Fuel in your tank is not considered correct storage.

[yanknbank]

You remind me one of those writers who write for home theatre magazines trying to describe the experience of listening to a great pair of speakers or a wine expert giving commentary on a particular crop of grapes...

....yeah, that's me JN. ****ing into the wind, all huff and no puff.
I'll tone it down a bit next time!

[mik]

i remember some years ago a servo in yarraville /footscray was in strife over dodgey fuel (diesel), it cost the trucky 20 k for an engine rebuild, it was on ACA from memory, i used to buy from the same sod on occasion, not often thankfully, sorry getting off topic.
Surely GT Falcon the wrong fuel must get put in tanks at times by mistake or on purpose, correct me if i`m wrong but the incentive to sell standard unleaded as the good stuff would not be beyond the unscrupulouse operator? 10 to 15 c per litre difference even mixed as a shandy to make it less detecable or am barking up the wrong tree?

[Romulus]

Originally Posted by mik

i remember some years ago a servo in yarraville /footscray was in strife over dodgey fuel (diesel), it cost the trucky 20 k for an engine rebuild, it was on ACA from memory, i used to buy from the same sod on occasion, not often thankfully, sorry getting off topic.
Surely GT Falcon the wrong fuel must get put in tanks at times by mistake or on purpose, correct me if i`m wrong but the incentive to sell standard unleaded as the good stuff would not be beyond the unscrupulouse operator? 10 to 15 c per litre difference even mixed as a shandy to make it less detecable or am barking up the wrong tree?

Incorrect fuel drops do happen from time to time and cost the servo or tanker driver (or insurance company) a lot of money to rectify. As for intentionally dropping the wrong product, I doubt that would happen. It's not the unscrupulouse dodgy service station owner off-loading the product from the tanker; it's the driver that does this. The driver is contracted by the oil company to deliver the product. I just can't see it happening in this day and age.

[WMD351]

A few years back in Melb I think Mobil blended a batch of sub par aviation gas into the supply to move it and it caused more than a few dramas

[nstg8a]

the fuel in my ef v8 is nearly 18 months old, and it has clearly deteriorated, pings bad under load, anything more than 60-70% throttle and its bad, dosnt like to idle, surges when stopped at the lights in gear to the point of stalling.
i wanna burn through a bit more of it before i top it up with nice new premium and see what differences there are. another 1/4 of a tank to go i reckon.

[GasoLane]

I find it strange that these days all the Supermuscletwinturbov8supercars are meant to run on 98.

I've got a 1988 4cyl 230e Benz.... Possibly the farthest thing from hairy chested type cars........The recommended fuel is 98.
But back then all you had was Super or Standard, both the same price!

A conspiracy between car and fuel companies maybe, to sell the higher priced fuel?
(the last line was sarcasm)

[The G6ET Spot]

Originally Posted by zeuss000

In Saturday's "Courier Mail" motoring advice column "Ask Smithy" the bloke who writes the column claims that

".....we were let in on a little secret and that is that the regular unleaded we are buying is no different to the premium on sale. It seems it's more economical for oil companies to produce one type of fuel instead of two. What they do is guarantee the octane rating of the fuel they produce, in the case of regular unleaded that's 91, whereas premium is a minimum of 95. They don't talk about the maximum octane rating. In that case we are wasting our money buying premium when regular is the same fuel. That was last week, what they do this week is anyone's guess.
Why do we pay more for premium? Simple, clever marketing"

Is this for real guys??

Cheers
Ed

Smithy is a moron and you would take anything he said with a grain of salt.

Why would the oil companies bother to make the different grades of fuel different colours if they weren't a different octane rating. A lot of work for no reason.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by WMD351

A few years back in Melb I think Mobil blended a batch of sub par aviation gas into the supply to move it and it caused more than a few dramas

Unless it was a LOT of years ago I suspect that this is a bit of an urban myth.

Avgas, even now, still has lead in it and would have completely stuffed a lot of cat converters.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by flappist

I suspect that this is a bit of an urban myth.

urban myth?? on an internet forum?? you're kidding aren't you!

[AussieAV]

Originally Posted by GT Falcon

From memory the higher octane fuels have a greater content of exotic aromatic hydrocarbons. Leave them exposed to the environment too long and they evaporate, reducing the octane of the fuel. Lower octane fuels have a higher calorific value than high octane fuels which generally provide better fuel economy than a high octane fuel. The flip side to that is they have the least resistance to detonation. You're better off buying the quantity of fuel you need and use it as quickly as possible as opposed to filling the tank and having it sit there for 3-4 weeks. A busy site will usually refill it's tanks every 2-3 days so the product is always fresh.

My brand new FG F6 was 2/3 filled with regular unleaded when I picked it up. It pinged that badly at one stage the engine forced a limp mode situation, almost reducing boost to nothing. I drove the car to empty the tank then refilled it with 98 octane fuel. Engine runs smoother and revs cleaner.

Oil companies have minimum fuel standards and garantees for the different products they sell and take their fuel standards very seriously. Contaminated fuels are 99% of the time caused by site issues i.e. contaminated tanks, faulty filters etc. BP in WA pulled Ultimate Diesel from it's product line up for almost 12 months due to a refinery issue - they won't allow an inferior product to hit the market.

I work in the fuel industry as a subcontractor. The oil companies spend big bucks ensuring tanks, lines, pumps etc are maintained.

BP Ultimate technical data sheet http://www.tds.bp.com.au/pdf%5C5556_M98ULv2.pdf

BP Ultimate MSDS http://www.msds.bp.com.au/msds.aspx?msdsno=02791-AU

Note the storage conditions for Ultimate is up to 1 year when stored correctly. Fuel in your tank is not considered correct storage.

Thanks for the docs GT Falcon, but the 98RON one has raised another question for me.

It refers to its applications including cars and motorcycles;
a) designed to run on 98 octane
b) designed to run on 95 octane ("but performance benefits may not be so apparent unless the vehicle is fitted with a knock sensor that can adjust the engine to take advantage of the higher octane.")

It doesn't refer to cars designed to run on 91 octane at all.

So does that mean that I'm putting it in my FG N/A for no good reason?

I'm pretty confident it won't do any damage, as I've been using it in the VY for years now, but am I just wasting my money.

Surely if it had benefits for cars that can run on 91 octane, BP's own spec sheet would say so, and include cars designed for 91 octane in its applications.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by AussieAV

So does that mean that I'm putting it in my FG N/A for no good reason?

this probably doesn't really answer your question, but ford quote 195kw on std unleaded and 200 (not sure on exact figure) on 98.

pretty sure the aurion output figures are also on 98 juice.

most modern cars will have more than one knock sensor these days so there is a good chance it will adjust, but anyone expecting huge improvements instantly are kidding themselves. even bp say 'with continued use'. (i guess thats so you keep buying it?)

if fuel companies have to garauntee a minimum octane level, then sure, 91 could actually be higher, but the same applies to 98 doesn't it?

[mik]

Originally Posted by GT Falcon

Incorrect fuel drops do happen from time to time and cost the servo or tanker driver (or insurance company) a lot of money to rectify. As for intentionally dropping the wrong product, I doubt that would happen. It's not the unscrupulouse dodgy service station owner off-loading the product from the tanker; it's the driver that does this. The driver is contracted by the oil company to deliver the product. I just can't see it happening in this day and age.

i guess its my cynical nature(been reemed a few times ), money talks all languages(for drivers to).

[castellan]

As far as i know the leaded fuel did last longer then the unleaded and E 10 does not last as long as unleaded i think it has to do with how it evaporates. if i store fuel i put it in a cool place in a jerry can. if i leave fuel in my dirt bike in the shed over a certain temperature sure to be sure the fuel will evaporate lowering the octane because the fuel tank is vented.
I had a XG longreach back in 1993 and she performed on caltex the best.
But my VS V6 & VS 5.0L & 5.7L gen III did not like caltex at all. i would travel up the hervey bay fill up with caltex because that is all they had and think what the f is going on my VS V6 would do 218 KM/H flat. but with caltex 92 or 95 only 205 KM/H flat.
My VS 5.0L would only perform well on 95 but not caltex if i got up it. or else it was that gutless that a V6 would out perform it. my gen III would spit and sputter when getting up it on caltex.
I have nothing against any company but that has been my experience.
I have ran 95 & 98 from any company servo, that gave poor performance. so i now try to find a station that has a high turnover of 98 fuel for the best performance.
I have run 91 E10 in the gen III when E10 first came out and it was gutless under 2200RPM. but now with 95 E10 it performs well but uses a bit more fuel.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by castellan

i would travel up the hervey bay fill up with caltex because that is all they had and think what the f is going on my VS V6 would do 218 KM/H flat. but with caltex 92 or 95 only 205 KM/H flat.

[AussieAV]

Originally Posted by prydey

this probably doesn't really answer your question, but ford quote 195kw on std unleaded and 200 (not sure on exact figure) on 98.

pretty sure the aurion output figures are also on 98 juice.

most modern cars will have more than one knock sensor these days so there is a good chance it will adjust, but anyone expecting huge improvements instantly are kidding themselves. even bp say 'with continued use'. (i guess thats so you keep buying it?)

if fuel companies have to garauntee a minimum octane level, then sure, 91 could actually be higher, but the same applies to 98 doesn't it?

Yeah, that answers it, thanks.

Not really worried about how much if any extra performance, as its a road only car, but was just wondering if it was capable of sensing better fuel and adjusting to run better and get some benefit.

To be honest, using 98 (BP Ultimate) more out of blind faith that it may help engine longevity. Theres a chance my son will get the XR50 a few years down the track, and want to keep it in as good a condition as I can.