Holdens dodgy acceleration claims

[Chopped]

YEAH YEAH like all the stock VL turbos doing 12's as well !

Turbo's don't really float my boat and the Japs are masters with them.

And our version of the "BOSS" never really earned that moniker IMO.

[mik]

i always thought the other way around Chopped , the boss is 10% smaller than the red team engine and yet still always provided a good challenge to the red team .

[Chopped]

Originally Posted by mik

i always thought the other way around Chopped , the boss is 10% smaller than the red team engine and yet still always provided a good challenge to the red team .

No they are both are in the same heavy weight boxing division - just the HSV has more muscle, hits harder and generally knocks out BOSS on every occasion !!

The Turbo 6 is the real BOSS. Shame as I like V8's better. This year may finally turn the tide.......

[blownv8au]

Originally Posted by Chopped

No they are both are in the same heavy weight boxing division - just the HSV has more muscle, hits harder and generally knocks out BOSS on every occasion !!

The Turbo 6 is the real BOSS. Shame as I like V8's better. This year may finally turn the tide.......

i think MIK was referring to capacity 5.4 to 6.0 and the boss would be heaps heavyer with castiron block and double overhead cam heads, so it was always coming from behind and has done a bloody good job i reckon. bring on the coyote and we'll see what happens then.

[UNR8D]

Originally Posted by Maggot

And if you lined up a pre AFM ss manual sedan, against a BFII manual sedan Xr8, competant drivers NOT in there own cars, and you HAD to bet your house on it!!!!... my blood runs blue but I would be betting the other way.

They have had lighter, higher capacity engines for some time and the boss did pretty bloody well to get close.

My money is on that race never occuring due to no AFM manuals ever being made ;)..

[TUF_302]

There's only one thing to do in this situation, HAHAHAHAHA!

[Falc'man]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

The BAGT was the first "magazine" 13 second result for a Falcon ever, to be honest since 2003 we've been quibbling over 10ths of a second from brand to brand, track to track, driver to driver, condition to condition.
Remember, magazines dont optimise the cars to suit drag racing or 0-100 with traction compounds, "spooling", fancy launch techniques, removing weight etc etc like people do at the strip, they normally have a passenger and half a tank of fuel too so what you see the mags get is closer to real world that we can expect from them as daily drivers...
In "magazine" mode both brand are "13xxx" cars....

The difference here is that HSV seem to quote "optimised" figures that nobody seems to be able to replicate in real world situations, FPV seem more "realistic" with their claims. In reality both are very close in performance.

Good post. With regards to timing we also need to point out the track times measure a quicker time due to roll-out/beams, the press use GPS type timing.

[Falc'man]

Originally Posted by Chopped

No they are both are in the same heavy weight boxing division - just the HSV has more muscle, hits harder and generally knocks out BOSS on every occasion !!

The Turbo 6 is the real BOSS. Shame as I like V8's better. This year may finally turn the tide.......

Not when driven and launched correctly. http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthr...light=magazine

Originally Posted by stevo123

The new August issue of NZ Autocar pits the FPV FG GTP against the HSV R8 and says some very favourable things about Fords finest, for example.......
"The up rated Boss engine is almost unrecognisable...this works as an honest to goodness V8 should. It pulls from nothing, revs out & seems eager to please."
"It scored a G6ET equalling 5.28 (0-100)...the best figure we've achieved from a production Aussie V8 to date.....80-120 in 2.95s...anything that gets into the 2s is wickedly quick" ."Get it to 3500rpm and it explodes into action"
"[The R8 doesn't have] the emphatic boost of bravado the Boss displays when its on cam" R8 0-100 in 5.30 & 80-120 in 3.17. ...R8 felt slower"
"GTP 15.1L/100k v R8 18plusL/100k"
"LS3 is starting to show its age"
THE VERDICT...If forced to choose, it would be the FPV for its superior powertrain, but you'd be mad not to drive the F6 before deciding"
Whats really interesting is that this identical car tested a couple of months ago took 5.84s to get to 100kph, so there appears to be some truth to those that say the Boss needs a few kays under its belt before it really flies

Don't know about you guys, but i've got a (very proud) lump in my throat

Read the topic, and what people are rightly insinuating; The red corner usually fiddle with their press cars. This leaves the impression (with the sheep who believe everything) that they're actually quicker.

[HSE2]

A collection of quotes

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Anyone read Motors PCOTY and the little bit about how Holden/HSV always complain about the acceleration times that Motor get being way off what they think they are capable of, so they sent Garth Tander along to prove them wrong, only for him to only match the times set by Motors usual tester Warren Luff. GT's best time in the GTS was a pitiful 13.72 and 0-100 in 5.6, recorded at the sticky WSID strip. HSV claim 0-100 in 4.99, so he couldn't even get close. Just proves how bs HSV's claims are.

"FPV is not a rival for HSV" HSV Managing Director Phil Harding told Wheels.
Whoa! Sorry?
After two false starts because HSV pulled its car at the 11th hour, we finally managed to drive the E2 Series Senator Signature back-to-back with FPV's F6E. And, as a performance yardstick, we took along Mercedes-Benz's impressive E63 AMG.
We'll get to the comparison in a moment. But first, why did HSV decide that another Red v Blue rumble was one too many? To find out, we sat down with Harding in his office at HSV HQ in the industrial suburb of Clayton, outside Melbourne. What we invisaged as a 15 minute discussion lasted an hour, and for almost two thirds of that time Harding requested that the voice recorder be turned off. While it was on, we asked him why he didn't want this comparison to happen."


"Holden Special Vehicles will next year market an LPG-based dual fuel option for models in its high-performance range that owners haven’t asked for, and its dealers don’t want.

HSV admits that fuel economy does not rate in its customers’ top 10 concerns and managing director Phil Harding says HSV dealers have openly opposed the plan but that he was committed to doing it anyway.

“I’ve done a survey with my dealers and they’ve told me they don’t want it and I said ‘I don’t believe you’,” he says."




So in summary we have a director of a company that has no competition, doesn't listen or care what dealers or customers want and backs this with attempting to prove the media can’t drive his products.

Its nearly like the appearance of the E2 wasn't bad enough. :

[gtfpv]

WHY HAS THE BOSS 315 in hiding ?? its never been mated against the HSV or F6. I THINK IT WAS IN A MAG ONCE ON A "RAINY DAY STRIP RUN " wtf ???
POST #30 back this up. any owners here have any times dyno printouts etc etc video . there noting anywhere on it STOCK.
For a car that outsells the F6 2 to 1 it doesnt show it s head anywhere . it's almost like it is ashamed of it self a worry really cause the 260/290/302 HAVE ALL BEEN SHOWN TO BE COMPETITIVE AGAINST THE LION .

[galaxy xr8]

Originally Posted by HSE2

A collection of quotes







"FPV is not a rival for HSV" HSV Managing Director Phil Harding told Wheels.
Whoa! Sorry?
After two false starts because HSV pulled its car at the 11th hour, we finally managed to drive the E2 Series Senator Signature back-to-back with FPV's F6E. And, as a performance yardstick, we took along Mercedes-Benz's impressive E63 AMG.
We'll get to the comparison in a moment. But first, why did HSV decide that another Red v Blue rumble was one too many? To find out, we sat down with Harding in his office at HSV HQ in the industrial suburb of Clayton, outside Melbourne. What we invisaged as a 15 minute discussion lasted an hour, and for almost two thirds of that time Harding requested that the voice recorder be turned off. While it was on, we asked him why he didn't want this comparison to happen."


"Holden Special Vehicles will next year market an LPG-based dual fuel option for models in its high-performance range that owners haven’t asked for, and its dealers don’t want.

HSV admits that fuel economy does not rate in its customers’ top 10 concerns and managing director Phil Harding says HSV dealers have openly opposed the plan but that he was committed to doing it anyway.

“I’ve done a survey with my dealers and they’ve told me they don’t want it and I said ‘I don’t believe you’,” he says."




So in summary we have a director of a company that has no competition, doesn't listen or care what dealers or customers want and backs this with attempting to prove the media can’t drive his products.

Its nearly like the appearance of the E2 wasn't bad enough. :

Sound's very much like the case.

[Chopped]

Read the topic, and what people are rightly insinuating; The red corner usually fiddle with their press cars. This leaves the impression (with the sheep who believe everything) that they're actually quicker.

I hadn't seen that test - impressive numbers indeed for the BOSS.

The sound of a wound up BOSS is miles ahead of the HSV product.

[MRFGXR6]

Originally Posted by pjm58

i think MIK was referring to capacity 5.4 to 6.0 and the boss would be heaps heavyer with castiron block and double overhead cam heads, so it was always coming from behind and has done a bloody good job i reckon. bring on the coyote and we'll see what happens then.

Your right there, you also forgetting the fact that the ford engine is far superior to that of the Holden. We have a smaller engine with quad cam compared to holdens ancient push rod motor, putting out more Kw's (290 compared to 270 with only 520nm of torque to that of 530nm of the Holden, with 600ml difference in engine size). Its well pathetic really on holdens behalf, every time we match them the only comeback they produce is a larger more gas guzzling motor. All imports are over head cam and have eliminated the older push-rod valve train even they know the benefits of over head cam. We know the benefits of the over head cam, less friction, more revs etc. So considering Ford has the smaller more superior engine with I might add more power its no wonder Holden is trying to sugar coat their results, we have already seen this with the fuel economy stats, we know that their sales stats contain the fleet sales for blown out figures, so its with no surprise they have fudged their times as well.

[1LOUDXFUTE]

Originally Posted by UNR8D

My money is on that race never occuring due to no AFM manuals ever being made ;)..

pretty sure he said pre AFM ss manual sedan

[XR Martin]

Originally Posted by 1LOUDXFUTE

pretty sure he said pre AFM ss manual sedan

Post AFM SS manual sedans are exactly the same as pre ones....

[Brute6]

Getting back to the original few quotes, with HSV not happy about figures and techniques that Motor use, I really had to hold back the laughs while I was reading it!!!
Without quoting the exact words, they sent along GT to "properly run some lap times and figures, basically hinting that Luffy was crap and someone decent could get the right times out of the car. Acceleration runs - both guys dead heated. Then the lap times for circulating E.Creek.....
GT goes out and does his best. Luffy then jumps in and creams Tander's time.... As Motor says - Point proven.
Even HSV's golden child couldn't do what HSV "reckon" the cars can do....
Justice!!!!! : : : : : :

[1LOUDXFUTE]

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

Post AFM SS manual sedans are exactly the same as pre ones....

AFM is available on the auto trans models only

[XR Martin]

Originally Posted by 1LOUDXFUTE

AFM is available on the auto trans models only

Thats what I said...

[Bad Bird]

Originally Posted by MRFGXR6

Your right there, you also forgetting the fact that the ford engine is far superior to that of the Holden. We have a smaller engine with quad cam compared to holdens ancient push rod motor, putting out more Kw's (290 compared to 270 with only 520nm of torque to that of 530nm of the Holden, with 600ml difference in engine size). Its well pathetic really on holdens behalf, every time we match them the only comeback they produce is a larger more gas guzzling motor. All imports are over head cam and have eliminated the older push-rod valve train even they know the benefits of over head cam. We know the benefits of the over head cam, less friction, more revs etc. So considering Ford has the smaller more superior engine with I might add more power its no wonder Holden is trying to sugar coat their results, we have already seen this with the fuel economy stats, we know that their sales stats contain the fleet sales for blown out figures, so its with no surprise they have fudged their times as well.

There is so much crap in this post that I don't know where to start...

Sure there are benefits of OHC, but pushrod motors are lighter and more compact. Indeed, it is the Ford engine that is much larger than Holden's. Blame the car, not the LS series. The Yanks have factory 12 and 11 second cars running them...

[kezzer]

Originally Posted by Bad Bird

There is so much crap in this post that I don't know where to start...

Sure there are benefits of OHC, but pushrod motors are lighter and more compact. Indeed, it is the Ford engine that is much larger than Holden's. Blame the car, not the LS series. The Yanks have factory 12 and 11 second cars running them...

Yeh I agree, cheaper to replace the cams on the LS engines too, nothing wrong with pushrods, the Zr1 runs RINGS around the Gt skyline haha.

I wouldn't compare the boss motor to any equivalent LS engine, heavy for the Litres they produce, why do you think Fords bringing in the Coyote??

Coyote will change things

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by WOLF

it seems they are finally heeding the call hence demise of the BOSS in favour of Coyote. But will Ford still be playing catch up? Time will tell I suppose. Either way, again the customer will be the winner
:

Originally Posted by kezzer

I wouldn't compare the boss motor to any equivalent LS engine, heavy for the Litres they produce, why do you think Fords bringing in the Coyote??

Coyote will change things

Ford are going Coyote because the BOSS cannot be made Euro IV compliant otherwise it would stay until it couldn't comply to the emissions standard.

[prydey]

all the people putting down the boss motor and praising the ls motors - what are you basing your opinion on?

please don't tell me its magazine articles. i've been in both and know many people that have owned both and the BOSS is always the one they prefer. it is FACT that they free up a LOT with some km's on board.

from the inside they FEEL very different in how they deliver the power to the road and the ls powered cars can be deceptive in how they feel but generally the stopwatch tells a different story. regardless of who wins there is never more than a couple of tenths in it anyway and the rest of the package on the BOSS powered cars is streets ahead (interior etc)

[XR Martin]

The fact the Boss weighs 100kg more than an LSx engines is enough to put me off one

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

The fact the Boss weighs 100kg more than an LSx engines is enough to put me off one

Yet the difference between the weights of the 2 vehicles is a fraction of that....

[prydey]

the weight of the engine is only a negative if you do serious trackwork, where weight distribution is too forward.

i wonder if car weights were never published whether joe public would even know the difference.

[FPV+fteT3]

The best business model is to be modest in your talking up of the product then let the product deliver in spades you will recieve more accolades this way than over promising and under delivering. Ford are always claiming slower times than are achievable and understating the fwkw ratings leaving most buyers and drivers coming away impressed.

Holdens advantage is that most bogans cant read.................

[UNR8D]

Holdens advantage is that most bogans cant read.................

[Chopped]

Under promise / Over deliver.

Old,tested and a successful sales/service model.

Maybe the magazines could hold a "Manufacturer's Proving It" day.

Each brand supplies it's own skilled test drivers, the mags supply the vehicles and let the brands prove their own claimed times. (I would buy that issue)

[SSD-85]

Originally Posted by Chopped

Under promise / Over deliver.

Old,tested and a successful sales/service model.

Maybe the magazines could hold a "Manufacturer's Proving It" day.

Each brand supplies it's own skilled test drivers, the mags supply the vehicles and let the brands prove their own claimed times. (I would buy that issue)

After this, I don't think Holden would participate in something like that. They'd write it off as another bathurst economy test...

Unless of course they supplied the vehicle

[XR Martin]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Yet the difference between the weights of the 2 vehicles is a fraction of that....

In the recent Wheels test, the FPV GS is about 100kg heavier than the SSV....