Global climate change - are you willing to make a sacrifice?

[Sapper]

Its all well and good for all of us to sell our v8's and go buy electric powered cars but in the end it will make little difference. The fact of the matter is, countries like China and India are starting to industrialise and compared to what they will put out in terms of pollution, anything that we do will pale to insignificance. Don't get me wrong, i'm all for sustainable development and practices but lets not lose focus of the global picture. Besides, many of the current alternatives that have been proposed for many of our 'polluting ways' are less than ideal.

[max]

Originally Posted by Ghia5L

I'll only focus on cars here, as the thread topic started with regard to V8s.

Do consumers stop to think about how much energy and resources go into producing new cars?

There's a Prius driver who poo-poos my car at work. Did he stop to think that much more materials and energy were consumed to produce his Prius than my EB V8 from 15 years ago? Just because it uses half as much fuel doesn't mean it's automatically more environmentally friendly.

Buying old cars is technically recycling. A thirsty Clevo-powered X-series that spits out more unburnt hydrocarbons out of its exhausts than what a new BF would consume in a year may not be the most environmentally-friendly option, but something like an old six on gas or an old four (80s corolla, etc) would be much more environmentally friendly than purchasing a new car, assuming it has a healthy motor and some form of emissions control (cat converter for example).

OK so if my EB was a six on gas it would be a better environmental choice than a V8, but then where do you draw the line? All of us here are enthusiasts, we all like to participate in events like cruises (let's burn a crapload of fuel by having a whole convoy of cars drive around, compared to hiring a single bus for everyone, or simply avoiding the event), drags, etc.

The Kyoto Protocal as a whole is flawed and will never work for the reasons which Martin has stated.

I shall keep my two vehicles (one for me one for my wife) which are both on gas as long as it is practical and viable. They are both serviced/maintained/tuned regularly and are safe and reliable. I am quite sure it makes more sense in respect of chewing up resources and energy than falling for the con of needing to embrace new safety/enviro-friendly whooplah. Global car manufacturing plants are springing up all over the world like mushrooms, predominently where there is cheap labor. Churning them out in the millions to a world that soaks them up as a fashion statement in addition to a percieved basic necessity. I don't know how many times I go through the argument with people that whislt on one hand I am trying to accumulate some wealth for retirement through investing my spare dollars, then if I was to replace my cars every two/three years the staggering depreciation would negate my capital growth strategy. I believe it works for me. I have done the sums, done projections. The only thing I have to master is to resist any kind of nagging self-consciousness that I get around in older cars and people might wonder why I don't get into the latest model. Another side benefit in running a car into the ground is you don't get too hung up about the inevitable odd scratch or nick the bodywork over time.

[mcflux]

Or depreciation! :

That's one I always use on my old man when he tells me I should buy a newer car.

[Bud Bud]

The problem here is that most of us acknowledge that there is a growing concern about "greenhouse gas" emissions, some say make the pollies fix it, and others say drive 4 cylinder cars or make the manufactures of those cars more responsible.

The reality is nobody on this forum or anyone else for that matter (while well meaning) have come up with any real practical solutions. While giving up our V8 cars in the name of saving the environment no matter how noble that maybe, we still need to get a grasp on the size and gravity of the big picture.

The world has shrunk in the last 100 years allowing big business and commerce to grow at an incredible rate and the industrial revolution that kick started everything we take for granted today is in full swing in various measures across the globe.

A good example of this is the suburban sprawl, which was built solely on the invention of the automobile and the availability of cheap fuel to power it. Public transport still plays a big part, but without personal transport today, many suburbs will be abandoned leaving real estate values across the globe in tatters. Another example is with another modern convenience, the world aviation industry (only just 100 years old now). I found this a little while ago.

(taken from the "International Herald Tribune" titled "Opposing environmental need tug at world’s airlines", by Don Phillips, Sunday June 4 2006)

"Quote- On the air pollution front, too, the industry is in a bind. Jet engines still burn the same fuel they burned 40 years ago - Jet A, which is basically kerosene. With more planes in the sky, civil aviation has become the fastest-growing source of carbon dioxide emissions.

Advances in fuel efficiency have made aircraft 70 percent more energy efficient today than they were 40 years ago. "However, sustained increases in passenger traffic have offset this remarkable achievement," said Assad Kotaite, retiring this year after decades as president of the International Civil Aviation Organization in Montreal.

Engine manufacturers say that, in the long run, there are promising substitutes, including synthetic kerosene. And far into the future, such fuels as cryogenic methane and cryogenic hydrogen may be possible.

There are practical problems with some promising jet fuel substitutes, Burleson said. Soybean oil has about the same heat content as jet fuel, but to provide enough soybean oil to add a 15 percent mixture to every airliner tank would require 34 million acres, or 13.8 million hectares, of soybean plantation - an area about the size of Florida. Unquote"

Did he say "the size of Florida"???? and that is just for a 15 percent mix!

Another example is, I can remember reading somewhere that in the US alone that it cost the equivalent of ten calories of energy for every single calorie of food eaten.

The whole world economy (developed or not) is built in some way on greenhouse gas emissions and the way I see it, as long as somebody has a need for something to buy there will always be somebody else willing to sell it to them eg; petroleum, coal, timber, plastics, SUV’s etc. unfortunately at the expense of the environment.

[drcook]

Originally Posted by merlin

I seriously cannot believe that people STILL think global warming is a scam - yep bury your head in the sand and ignore all the evidence that scientists have been screaming for years and even now, finally, the British government has jumped on board saying that radical changes need to happen right now or the world will be a very different place within OUR lifetimes - you think they would risk saying this and spending millions if there was no problem?

John Howard is ignorant on this particular issue and continues to ignore the warning signs, I'm not a Howard basher (I think he is good on the financial side of running the country) but on this issue I disagree with him and I think he needs to seriosuly change his position. What is the point of giving billions of tax payers money to farmers who cant farm the land due to excessive drought? Fix the problem in the first place!

Back to the original question though about people giving up V8's - You have to look at the big picture - A FEW THOUSAND AUSTRALIANS GIVING UP V8's WILL NOT AFFECT THE WORLDS CLIMATE IN THE SLIGHTEST. Car emmisions in Aus do not make up that significant a difference. It all comes down to heavy industry and coal fired power stations. If we converted to Nuclear power we could help solve this countries climate problems almost overnight.

Oh and by the way per capita Australia is the worst in the world when it comes to this problem so saying it is someone elses fault is not really fair.

We stand to lose a lot (almost more than any other country) - We have a very harsh, hot, dry climate, oodles of coast line where most of the population lives and rely heavily on private transport taking us long distances.

I plan of having kids in about 5 years time - I imagine I would do anything to protect them. If your kid stepped in front of a runaway train would you risk your life, jump in front of the train and push them out of the way? I like to think everyone would. Now imagine the train as global warming bearing down at us at an ever increasing rate - your unborn child or grandchild being born into a world almost uninhabitable due to our current inaction. Don't stand still, jump in front of the damn train! What can you do? You can lobby the government for nuclear power, write letters to your MP demanding action on global warming, refuse to vote for a government that will stand still on the issue.

As the British report basically said - Yes it cannot be 100% proven that massive climate upheavel will take place BUT the consequenses of doing nothing are simply to massive to ignore, the risk simply too high.

My 2c.

The News headlines yesterday

so what are you doing about it?

[Iphido]

My new house will be powered by Solar and wind. Not just because of climate change but because there is no power avalible.

You have to make the changes yourself. Governments can legislate a bit, but in the end it comes down to personal responcibility

Australia is just about to build several new (coal, gas or maybe nuclear) power stations due to the increase in cheap airconditioners. Its madness.

More efficent appliances and houses. Buy an efficent car (6 speed BF or LPG I would place in that). Produce your own electricity, solar hot water heaters etc. You have to start somewhere. Any new house built today should 5000+ litres of rain water storage, a solar heater for hot water, one solar panel to run 12v lighting inside (halogens, leds, fluros), excellent insulation and grey water recycling.

If everyone made the choice to go more green, then governments wouldn't have force the change upon us.

[merlin]

Originally Posted by drcook

so what are you doing about it?

On a personal basis I work in government public transport operations and planning

However:

I honestly don't think any one individual can make a significant difference - I have always been into and always will be into the big picture, I am a realist. I have my views and pass my views onto those that ask, and try and educate the people in the dark on the issue.

I believe that the only people who can solve the big picture are world governments (scary huh?). As such I will help the environment the next time an election comes around.

[Bud Bud]

This is an interesting angle that not too many people have considered. This may have some ramifications that could affect all of us, through our own businesses, and our employers etc.

Govts and companies may be sued on climate change

1/11/2006 - Law suits against governments and companies over their roles in global warming have a good chance of success, academics say.

University of Adelaide researchers say scientific evidence shows a `human signature' on global warming as great as that linking cigarette smoking with cancer.

Researchers Dr Joseph Smith and Professor David Shearman said they had analysed the basis for potential legal claims against governments and companies over climate change.

"The potential grounds of liability are now quite clear," Dr Smith said in a statement.

"And the scientific evidence is at a point where, in many cases, it would meet the legal requirements for civil standards of proof - that is, the balance of probability being greater than 50 per cent."

He cited an ongoing law suit in the United States by the state of California against six major car manufacturers seeking monetary damages for alleged contributions to global warming.

"Major grounds against companies could include negligence, product liability, nuisance, breach of directors' duties and liability under environmental pollution statutes," Dr Smith said.

"For governments, actions are likely to be based on administrative laws for failing to fulfill statutory obligations to protect the environment."

Prof Shearman said there was clear evidence of global warming's effects on human health such as increasing deaths through heat stress and injury from storms, as well as the impact of large communities losing areas of productive lands.

Source: AAP NewsWire

[SVT8]

im not giving up my v8 for some hippie’s!. If worst comes to worst they can plant some trees on my car so the emissions get used up by the plants!. Look on the plus side, i can grab an apple from the tree growing on my car and not at maccas for 50c. Ripoff! _

[Rob]

If it wasnt for the problem of power stations creating so much in the way of greenhouse emissions, I'd say bring on the electric car. Masses of instantaneous torque? Yum!

[Work Horse]

Originally Posted by SVT8

im not giving up my v8 for some hippie’s!. If worst comes to worst they can plant some trees on my car so the emissions get used up by the plants!. Look on the plus side, i can grab an apple from the tree growing on my car and not at maccas for 50c. Ripoff! _

I understand that you were not being completely serious. The idea that planting trees can some how clean up carbon emissions is a furphy. Had we never cut down any trees we would still be in much the same situation emmission wise.

There are a heap of other good reasons to plant/not to cut down trees.

But I don't wish to sound like a 'greenie', what have they ever done for us? Well there was that thing with the daming of the Franklin in Tassie. And they have been banging on about solar power for ages, now Victoria is building the largest solar power station in the world....

Originally Posted by 4.9 EF Futura

I ran this past my friend who just had a baby delivered at a public hospital and is now beginning treatment at said hospital for lymphoma. I kid you not.

She didnt agree, apparently there is quite a lot done with taxpayer money.

And what the hell is government doing getting involved in running a bussiness like our health system? Surely it should be privatised, and run way more efficiently and make way more money like they do in the USA.
Sorry mate couldn't resist :

[charles_wif_xf]

Originally Posted by blackout

I have reduced to driving a corolla every day and the V8 on weekends

I have been reduced to GULP using public transport. Train all the way to work (well 2 trains and a bit of walking).

[4.9 EF Futura]

Originally Posted by Work Horse

And what the hell is government doing getting involved in running a bussiness like our health system? Surely it should be privatised, and run way more efficiently and make way more money like they do in the USA.
Sorry mate couldn't resist :

Haha, yeah no dramas WH... perfectly understandable. It's a mixed system anyways

[Hardtopxb]

Tell you what.The moment people give up/stop driving around 2.5 and 3 Ton 4x4,SVUs etc using overstressed V6s and thumping great fuel guzzling I6s I will stop driving my V8 coupe around once or twice a week.It's just about always the poor car that gets the blame for emissions when industry shouold take a good look at it's self..IMO..

[SVT8]

Originally Posted by Work Horse

I understand that you were not being completely serious. The idea that planting trees can some how clean up carbon emissions is a furphy. Had we never cut down any trees we would still be in much the same situation emmission wise.

When we burn fossil fuels of any matter we release carbon dioxide into the atmosphere. Although the gases emmited from burning coal/fuel emmisions is not entirely CO2. Since humans have interfeared with the whole greenhouse gas effects, the rate of C02 has increased dramatically. Now since fuel emmisions release C02, it manages to build up in our atmosphere contributing to global warming. Trees/plants and algae contribute to sustainablity of the natural carbon cycle. Without them, in affect we wouldnt be able to breath let alone drive v8's. By cutting down trees plants etc, we have reduced the amount of CO2 absorbtions by plants. And with our increasing populations and demands the Carbon dioxide will most likely build up and heat up the earth even more. So in affect plants do contribute to the global warming debate.

Sorry to bable on about nonsense, i just completed an essay on the nitrogen, carbon and phosporus cycle so im full of useless knowledge at the momement. lol

[Spotty]

Originally Posted by merlin

I seriously cannot believe that people STILL think global warming is a scam - yep bury your head in the sand and ignore all the evidence that scientists have been screaming for years and even now, finally, the British government has jumped on board saying that radical changes need to happen right now or the world will be a very different place within OUR lifetimes - you think they would risk saying this and spending millions if there was no problem?

John Howard is ignorant on this particular issue and continues to ignore the warning signs, I'm not a Howard basher (I think he is good on the financial side of running the country) but on this issue I disagree with him and I think he needs to seriosuly change his position. What is the point of giving billions of tax payers money to farmers who cant farm the land due to excessive drought? Fix the problem in the first place!

Back to the original question though about people giving up V8's - You have to look at the big picture - A FEW THOUSAND AUSTRALIANS GIVING UP V8's WILL NOT AFFECT THE WORLDS CLIMATE IN THE SLIGHTEST. Car emmisions in Aus do not make up that significant a difference. It all comes down to heavy industry and coal fired power stations. If we converted to Nuclear power we could help solve this countries climate problems almost overnight.

Oh and by the way per capita Australia is the worst in the world when it comes to this problem so saying it is someone elses fault is not really fair.

We stand to lose a lot (almost more than any other country) - We have a very harsh, hot, dry climate, oodles of coast line where most of the population lives and rely heavily on private transport taking us long distances.

I plan of having kids in about 5 years time - I imagine I would do anything to protect them. If your kid stepped in front of a runaway train would you risk your life, jump in front of the train and push them out of the way? I like to think everyone would. Now imagine the train as global warming bearing down at us at an ever increasing rate - your unborn child or grandchild being born into a world almost uninhabitable due to our current inaction. Don't stand still, jump in front of the damn train! What can you do? You can lobby the government for nuclear power, write letters to your MP demanding action on global warming, refuse to vote for a government that will stand still on the issue.

As the British report basically said - Yes it cannot be 100% proven that massive climate upheavel will take place BUT the consequenses of doing nothing are simply to massive to ignore, the risk simply too high.

My 2c.

The News headlines yesterday

Think global act local....that is a great slogan........let me ask this is the world and its various governmnets in a position to work together to bring about such a huge change that is neecesscary? There are 2 many entrenched power bases, vested business and political interests that will prevent a united approach and for everyone to see the world as one. I ask this question....if you were up in space and look down on the earth what WOULDNT you see? The answer is country borders and polictical systems..these systems hamper our ability to work collectively and deal with climate change. By the way for all of you who doubt that climate change is happening and/or it is a greenie or extreme environmentalist view then take a look at the Stern report which was released yesterday. I have attached the link below.....read the summary of the report. The report has credibility. It includes all the facts and evidence that climate change is here NOW as well as some very confronting outcomes if we do not act. Our politicians need a further shock to deal with with this problem and if the Stern report is not enough to get some serious action then we the people need to respond in the only way that we know is going to get some results from our political leaders...and that is when we vote. We have an election soon in victoria and although Bracks is doing some good things it is not enough. So....I will be sending a clear message an voting for the greens. I have some real concerns about a number of their policies and hate the thought of being a single issue voter BUT I am feeling an absolute sense of desperation about the lack of action and all the fluffy coments from our politicians. Anyway heres the link to the Stern Report.

http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/indepe...view_index.cfm

[GXL078]

Hopefully we can get an exemption for 30 years + classic vehicles with low annual Kms.

[4.9 EF Futura]

OK there's a lot of people saying "im not giving up my car, make the factories cut down emissions".

Well for starters a factory actually PRODUCES something, in exchange for its emissions. A car is a choice for personal transport. Or more to the point, a LARGE car is a personal choice for transport. Dont give me this ***** about needing it for the family either, i know plenty of people whos kids are perfectly happy scooting around in the back of a Hyundai Getz . The factory already has "one up" on motor vehicles - they are contributing something... our large cars are nothing more than selfish decisions.

Do you realise that every litre of fuel you run through your engine will produce 2.5kg of CO2 emissions?

Consider this.

Most people drive between 15 and 20 thousand kms per year.

At 15,000km - and at 15L/100km - you are producing 5600kg of CO2.

Going from my blown V8 EF (20,000km pa @ 20L/100km = 10,000kg of CO2) to my sh*box celica (20,000km pa @ 10L/100km = 5,000kg CO2) ive managed to keep 5 tonnes of CO2 out of the atmosphere. Let's not be distracted by the fact that im not driving this car as a result of environmental concerns lol. But im not kidding myself about my large car either.

The following (source: EPA victoria) shows the relative contribution of various segments in the production of CO2:



A summary is that your key offenders are power stations/refineries (50%), agriculture (18%) and transport (15%).

To suggest that one person cant do anything is a cop out.

[Work Horse]

Originally Posted by SVT8

When we burn fossil fuels of any matter we release carbon dioxide into the atmosphere. Although the gases emmited from burning coal/fuel emmisions is not entirely CO2. Since humans have interfeared with the whole greenhouse gas effects, the rate of C02 has increased dramatically. Now since fuel emmisions release C02, it manages to build up in our atmosphere contributing to global warming. Trees/plants and algae contribute to sustainablity of the natural carbon cycle. Without them, in affect we wouldnt be able to breath let alone drive v8's. By cutting down trees plants etc, we have reduced the amount of CO2 absorbtions by plants. And with our increasing populations and demands the Carbon dioxide will most likely build up and heat up the earth even more. So in affect plants do contribute to the global warming debate.

Sorry to bable on about nonsense, i just completed an essay on the nitrogen, carbon and phosporus cycle so im full of useless knowledge at the momement. lol

lol bable on SVT8, I believe the purpose of the thread was to premote discussion!

I have studied horticulture at a tretiary level,(big deal!!), so I have an idea about photosynthesis. I understand the amazing service performed by plants in producing oxygen. Half of which is produced in the sea.

The nitrous on my car wouldn't work nearly as well with out it!

So yes plants do "lock up" carbon, and produce oxygen. But it's a balanced system.

We are digging up brown coal in the Latrobe Valley and burning it. The carbon released was locked up in Beech trees thousands of years ago. This is happening all over the plant. Carbon that has been locked up over tens of thousands of years, is being dug up and burned(released) all at once.

It matters little how may trees we plant or that we have cut most down as far as levels of CO2 are concerned. We need to stop releasing carbon.

Personally I don't use my nitrous nearly as much as I could...just doing my bit.

[chevypower]

my view is that we are not sacrificing enough $ as individuals for environmentally friendliness - love the idea of Puegeot pushing diesel-electric, will be great on bio-diesel!
I like the idea of windfarms and solar electricity being announced for Victoria - we can generate lots of power for our cars in environmentally friendly ways without compromises to the size of the vehicle. We don't NEED a bent block of iron with 8 pistons, burning fossil fuel to do the job - for some, I believe, it's all about the sound, image, and "it's a V8" appeal. There should be tougher regulations on car manufactuers to use the most environmentally ways possible to produce power.
Maybe cars should be pure electric, and all the electricity in the world had to be produced free of emissions. And the cars electricity was 3 phase 415V, and every servo had a 3 phase fast charger? that would be sweet, cheap, easy - and therefore lacking industry, which moves the economy maybe thats why it's not being pushed.

[Hardtopxb]

Originally Posted by 4.9 EF Futura

OK there's a lot of people saying "im not giving up my car, make the factories cut down emissions".

Well for starters a factory actually PRODUCES something, in exchange for its emissions. A car is a choice for personal transport. Or more to the point, a LARGE car is a personal choice for transport. Dont give me this ***** about needing it for the family either, i know plenty of people whos kids are perfectly happy scooting around in the back of a Hyundai Getz . The factory already has "one up" on motor vehicles - they are contributing something... our large cars are nothing more than selfish decisions.

Do you realise that every litre of fuel you run through your engine will produce 2.5kg of CO2 emissions?

Consider this.

Most people drive between 15 and 20 thousand kms per year.

At 15,000km - and at 15L/100km - you are producing 5600kg of CO2.

Going from my blown V8 EF (20,000km pa @ 20L/100km = 10,000kg of CO2) to my sh*box celica (20,000km pa @ 10L/100km = 5,000kg CO2) ive managed to keep 5 tonnes of CO2 out of the atmosphere. Let's not be distracted by the fact that im not driving this car as a result of environmental concerns lol. But im not kidding myself about my large car either.

The following (source: EPA victoria) shows the relative contribution of various segments in the production of CO2:



A summary is that your key offenders are power stations/refineries (50%), agriculture (18%) and transport (15%).

To suggest that one person cant do anything is a cop out.

Not having a go at you here 4.9, but it worries me how 1 litre of fuel weighing aprox 1.2 kgs can produce 2.5 kgs of CO2 emissions?.

[Barry_v]

magic. just like global warming.

[Auslandau]

Global Warming???? Who was in Melbourne last week!

Its the ferals and greenies who dont want Nuclear power which is a known 'clean' fuel source and would be a massive step in cleaning things up.

Also love the...."Its the g'ments fault" argument. And to think after the next Vic state election the Greens will proberly have the balance of power here.......what a hoot! Are they going to help solve this issue?

"Global Warming" is the biggest catch cry since "Globalisation" and I really beleive that no one has a clue on what it really is!



| [/url] |

[Sourbastard]

Originally Posted by Hardtopxb

Not having a go at you here 4.9, but it worries me how 1 litre of fuel weighing aprox 1.2 kgs can produce 2.5 kgs of CO2 emissions?.

Do you burn your fuel in a 1:1 air fuel ratio? Most likely not. Thats a hint by the way.

[TURBOTAXI]

Global warming is a huge threat. In 50 years if it turned out it wasnt I will apologise.
But in 50 years if you are unable to be in the sun certain hours of the day without protective clothing please remember that you have read many posts here warning you of the risks.

If terrorism might kill 3000 people per event (normally much less) are we not worried about effecting the whole planet, and the whole population?

I have installed Solar Hot water, I an intending to use a largeish grid connected solar cell system (when prices drop just a bit more) I use LPG in both of our cars, I recycle lots of materials and parts.

I look at my three kids and I am worried about what the future holds for them.

Please take action locally and do something to ensure YOUR footprint on this earth doesnt disadvantge our future generations.

[MO]

Global warming...what a crock..its happened before it will happen again just the same as global cooling..its all a cycle it may have happened 10,000 yrs ago it may be 100,000 yrs ago.

And if it turns into a long term thing and farming is totalled then there is always.....Soylent Green.

Just to show I'm doing my bit I stopped drinking water years ago.

[[Tonko]]

Personally, i couldnt care less. i will keep my V8, i will drive it constantly, if its gonna happen it will, it dosent matter if i drive my 8 or not. and it wont happen in my life time, i have read numerous articles on this but its too late to dig them up...
My 2c.

[JC]

Originally Posted by Falcon Freak

This subject is in the news a lot lately. As a driver of a V8 powered vehicle it makes me realise that one day cars such as these will be made prohibitively expensive to own and run. I am not talking just fuel costs. Things like a carbon tax will hurt big capacity engines and high performance cars. I am not willing to give up driving V8 powered Falcons. What do you guys make of this situation and possible future developments?

FF

One of the reasons I converted my windsor to LPG. the main is to save money on a weekly basis, the second is that LPG is less harmful to the environment. But any coal or oil derived fuel is harmful, so perhaps I am just kidding myself?

[4.9 EF Futura]

Originally Posted by sourbastard

Do you burn your fuel in a 1:1 air fuel ratio? Most likely not. Thats a hint by the way.

Thanks sb!!

Yes hardtop, a good question and one that i asked myself!!

Considering the stoich ratio of 14.7:1 A:F that most EFI vehicles target under a closed loop scenario...

From what i understand, there's bucketloads of different hydrocabons (and all sorts of stuff) in a drop of petrol... but octane a good example to demonstrate where the volumes of CO2 come from.

I think the stoich for octane is 12.5:1... well, that balances the equation anyways... haha, i must confess i havent done much chemistry since Yr12...

(2)C8H18 + (25)O2 = (18)H2O + (16)CO2

Lots of carbon in petrol, lots of oxygen in... oxygen = lots of CO2 when the two meet.

[4.9 EF Futura]

Originally Posted by TonkoXR8

Personally, i couldnt care less. i will keep my V8, i will drive it constantly, if its gonna happen it will, it dosent matter if i drive my 8 or not. and it wont happen in my life time, i have read numerous articles on this but its too late to dig them up...
My 2c.

That's the spirit!

*sniff* Doesnt this just make you proud to be a member of the human race??

All we need is every man and woman in developing nations to get themselves a motor vehicle and we can have 7 billion people, in unity, not caring.