Another death on Victorian roads - Page 2

Magna · 22-01-2010, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prydey

absolute bulldust!!!!!

you surely can't be serious.

im not saying all truck drivers are bad, some are very professional drivers but when there is an accident its the truck driver at fault cause there usually high on drugs and dont get enough sleep.

geckoGT · 22-01-2010, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magna

im not saying all truck drivers are bad, some are very professional drivers but when there is an accident its the truck driver at fault cause there usually high on drugs and dont get enough sleep.

I would say that from my experience, high on drugs and not enough sleep are probably the least common reasons. Yes these reasons get more attention because they normally result in massive carnage out on open roads, but they happen very infrequently.

The real truth is most truck accidents happen in urban areas and although I would not say 9/10 are the fault of the truck, at least half are. The more common reasons are things like excessive speed, driver inattention and failing to obey road rules (red/yellow lights, give way etc).

In my opinion it is not good enough that 50% of the time it is the fault of any particular group of professional drivers, be it taxi, truck, bus or emergency vehicle drivers. Being a professional driver requires you to be better than the average, otherwise you are just a driver and should not be entrusted with that responsibility, no excuses.

gtxb67 · 22-01-2010, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magna

im not saying all truck drivers are bad, some are very professional drivers but when there is an accident its the truck driver at fault cause there usually high on drugs and dont get enough sleep.

are truck drivers to blame for the car on car accidents as well, because apparently the car drivers are not to blame for much

one of the problems on the road is that car drivers blame trucks and bikes, bike riders blame cars and trucks and truck drivers blame bikes and cars - and the fact is most of them are either crap, inattentive, arrogant or stupid no matter what choice of vehicle - unless you ask them of course and then you will find that they are the only good driver in the country

The Snout · 22-01-2010, 07:58 PM

Cars, truck, bikes, good and bad everywhere, every brand.

left · 22-01-2010, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magna

im not saying all truck drivers are bad, some are very professional drivers but when there is an accident its the truck driver at fault cause there usually high on drugs and dont get enough sleep.

How is this any different to the majority of idiots driving cars that end up having an accident *shrug*

Recently read that 30% of drivers had drugs in their system and about 25% were drunk (will try to find the article). The vast majority of accidents involve cars, not trucks. IME - and I drive a lot - truck drivers are far and away the better drivers. Of course there are exceptions** but generally speaking, I would rather be on the freeway surrounded by B-doubles than little old ladies driving Corollas.

**the smaller the truck the worse the driver e.g. garden centre tip trucks drive like maniacs!

BENT_8 · 22-01-2010, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gtxb67

are truck drivers to blame for the car on car accidents as well, because apparently the car drivers are not to blame for much

one of the problems on the road is that car drivers blame trucks and bikes, bike riders blame cars and trucks and truck drivers blame bikes and cars - and the fact is most of them are either crap, inattentive, arrogant or stupid no matter what choice of vehicle - unless you ask them of course and then you will find that they are the only good driver in the country

Not too often you see two cyclists side by side on a dual lane road...

I for one am sick of the attitude of truck drivers lately.
I regularly travel along Salisbury highway and have lost count of how many times you find a particular company who carts cars for GMH travelling side by side.
The irony being that they are going to the same place.

4Vman · 22-01-2010, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gtxb67

are truck drivers to blame for the car on car accidents as well, because apparently the car drivers are not to blame for much

one of the problems on the road is that car drivers blame trucks and bikes, bike riders blame cars and trucks and truck drivers blame bikes and cars - and the fact is most of them are either crap, inattentive, arrogant or stupid no matter what choice of vehicle - unless you ask them of course and then you will find that they are the only good driver in the country

Truck drivers are car drivers and bike riders too... there are as many bad amongst them all.... the difference is the level of concequence....

chrisfpv · 22-01-2010, 08:07 PM

Forgive me if I have missed this, but is the general theory that the truck driver has pulled out into the right lane without looking and the 4WD was extremely close, within let's say 50 meters for example, and he hasn't had time to react fast enough or swerve back into the left lane?

4Vman · 22-01-2010, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XR6AUS

Forgive me if I have missed this, but is the general theory that the truck driver has pulled out into the right lane without looking and the 4WD was extremely close, within let's say 50 meters for example, and he hasn't had time to react fast enough or swerve back into the left lane?

Allegedly pulled onto the WRONG side of the road across the dividing lines just as the 4WD was going past....

geckoGT · 22-01-2010, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by left

How is this any different to the majority of idiots driving cars that end up having an accident *shrug*

The consequences are higher and more lethal.

Quote:

Recently read that 30% of drivers had drugs in their system and about 25% were drunk (will try to find the article).

What a load of crap. Most accidents do not involve any form of testing for drug use except breath testing for alcohol, only those that result in serious injury or death have drug toxicology, and then normally only during postmortem. So how did they come up with this figure?

Quote:

The vast majority of accidents involve cars, not trucks. IME - and I drive a lot - truck drivers are far and away the better drivers. Of course there are exceptions** but generally speaking, I would rather be on the freeway surrounded by B-doubles than little old ladies driving Corollas.

Maybe this is primarily because the there is proportionately more cars than trucks and very little to do with better driving standards.

Quote:

**the smaller the truck the worse the driver e.g. garden centre tip trucks drive like maniacs!

Agree completely.

Fireblade · 22-01-2010, 08:20 PM

To be honest I think some people may be jumping the gun here, if he's carrying concrete pipes that would be a fairly hefty load and theres a possibility that the truck in front of him may have slowed down, hit the brakes or the truckie may have just misjudged the speed the truck in front was travelling and in doing this he may have made a split second decision to avoid the initial truck and its obvious what the consequences are. As I have said in another thread as long as humans are responsible for the operation of motor vehicles we will keep having these incidents, humans make mistakes and they can have some fatal consequences. It doesnt make it right or wrong but that is life unfortunately for some.

Im not trying to play down what has happened and fully agree that if he was reckless in his overtaking manouvre then the book should be thrown at him, but the circumstances surrounding the accident havent been released yet so it is hard to say if he was being blatantly reckless.

My sincerest condolences go to the family of the deceased.

4Vman · 22-01-2010, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by F6 FOON

To be honest I think some people may be jumping the gun here, if he's carrying concrete pipes that would be a fairly hefty load and theres a possibility that the truck in front of him may have slowed down, hit the brakes or the truckie may have just misjudged the speed the truck in front was travelling and in doing this he may have made a split second decision to avoid the initial truck and its obvious what the consequences are. As I have said in another thread as long as humans are responsible for the operation of motor vehicles we will keep having these incidents, humans make mistakes and they can have some fatal consequences. It doesnt make it right or wrong but that is life unfortunately for some.

Im not trying to play down what has happened and fully agree that if he was reckless in his overtaking manouvre then the book should be thrown at him, but the circumstances surrounding the accident havent been released yet so it is hard to say if he was being blatantly reckless.

My sincerest condolences go to the family of the deceased.

Or maybe he was just in a hurry and lost patience and didnt want to loose momentum.....

geckoGT · 22-01-2010, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by F6 FOON

To be honest I think some people may be jumping the gun here, if he's carrying concrete pipes that would be a fairly hefty load and theres a possibility that the truck in front of him may have slowed down, hit the brakes or the truckie may have just misjudged the speed the truck in front was travelling and in doing this he may have made a split second decision to avoid the initial truck and its obvious what the consequences are.

In which case he is still at fault as he would have had to be following too close for this to happen, throw the book at him and lock him up.

In my opinion the only reason for him to cross those lines and cause this accident is if by some chance he had a heart attack at the time or something similar and was not fully conscious at the time. Thats the only reason I can think of right now. But we would know that as it would have been reported by now if that was the case.

geckoGT · 22-01-2010, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Or maybe he was just in a hurry and lost patience and didnt want to loose momentum.....

Thats more likely the reason.

The simple fact is it is very rare a traffic crash is a true accident. I have been to 2 in the last 8 years I have been involved in emergency services. One was an old guy that had a heart attack at the wheel, lost control and swerved into the path of an oncoming road train. I feel for the driver of the road train here as he had nothing he could do and nor could he have prevented it. The other was a guy driving during a thunder storm, lightning hit his car and set off the airbag (confirmed by witnesses), causing him to lose control and hit a lamp post.

All other crashes have had someone at fault in some way and the crash could have been prevented, therefore not an accident.

This is the reason QAS (QLD Ambulance Service) used to call crashes RTA's (Road Traffic Accidents) but now call them RTC's (Road Traffic Crashes), because there is virtually no such thing as a accident on the road.

4Vman · 22-01-2010, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geckoGT

Thats more likely the reason.

The simple fact is it is very rare a traffic crash is a true accident. I have been to 2 in the last 8 years I have been involved in emergency services. One was an old guy that had a heart attack at the wheel, lost control and swerved into the path of an oncoming road train. I feel for the driver of the road train here as he had nothing he could do and nor could he have prevented it. The other was a guy driving during a thunder storm, lightning hit his car and set off the airbag (confirmed by witnesses), causing him to lose control and hit a lamp post.

All other crashes have had someone at fault in some way and the crash could have been prevented, therefore not an accident.

This is the reason QAS (QLD Ambulance Service) used to call crashes RTA's (Road Traffic Accidents) but now call them RTC's (Road Traffic Crashes), because there is virtually no such thing as a accident on the road.

Agree completely...

gtxb67 · 22-01-2010, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Truck drivers are car drivers and bike riders too... there are as many bad amongst them all....

i agree, no one is innocent - however i have had more moron car drivers almost run into me than truck drivers

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

the difference is the level of concequence....

while this is true, i think it is more appropriate that the difference is the level of potential consequence
while an accident with a truck can be and generally is devastating, so is a single vehicle accident with a tree or a head on between two cars. it doesn't matter how bad the vehicle is smashed up, just how injured or not the people are. unfortunately 2 people lost their lives today colliding with a truck, but recently there have been at least 2 accidents i can think of with more fatalities and not a truck in sight

geckoGT · 22-01-2010, 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gtxb67

i agree, no one is innocent - however i have had more moron car drivers almost run into me than truck drivers

while this is true, i think it is more appropriate that the difference is the level of potential consequence
while an accident with a truck can be and generally is devastating, so is a single vehicle accident with a tree or a head on between two cars. it doesn't matter how bad the vehicle is smashed up, just how injured or not the people are. unfortunately 2 people lost their lives today colliding with a truck, but recently there have been at least 2 accidents i can think of with more fatalities and not a truck in sight

I do not believe this reduces the responsibility that "professional drivers" are expected to have. I know I am aware of the higher expectation the community has on my driving standard at work and respect that expectation highly.

gtxb67 · 22-01-2010, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geckoGT

I do not believe this reduces the responsibility that "professional drivers" are expected to have. I know I am aware of the higher expectation the community has on my driving standard at work and respect that expectation highly.

of course it doesn't reduce their responsibility, but there are many taxi drivers, couriers and the like that do not act any more responsibly than some truck drivers - probably less so. i am not sticking up for truck drivers as such, but they are no worse than many other people on the road

it is irrelevant whether we drive for a living or drive for pleasure. the fact is it does not matter what reason any of us have to be on the road - we have the same responsibility as everyone else - to drive in a safe and courteous manner

geckoGT · 22-01-2010, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gtxb67

of course it doesn't reduce their responsibility, but there are many taxi drivers, couriers and the like that do not act any more responsibly than some truck drivers - probably less so. i am not sticking up for truck drivers as such, but they are no worse than many other people on the road

it is irrelevant whether we drive for a living or drive for pleasure. the fact is it does not matter what reason any of us have to be on the road - we have the same responsibility as everyone else - to drive in a safe and courteous manner

I do see what you are trying to say and on the face value of the law you are correct. In terms of public expectation and society standards, I have to disagree with you. As an example I am going to give some scenarios, with me as the dodgy driver (as I could be considered a professional driver on a number of levels). I must point out these are not real occurrences.

Scenario 1

I am driving on Logan rd in Holland Park QLD, approaching the Holland Rd intersection in my own personal car and not in uniform. I see the light is yellow and I have more than enough time to stop but I floor it and pass the stop line after the lights are red. I do not make it through and I T bone another car, causing minor injuries to myself, moderate injuries requiring a 3 day admission to hospital to the other occupant. Will this accident be covered in the major newspaper or make it to the news on tv, no it won't.

Scenario 2

I am now approaching the same intersection in the same manner, this time I am in an ambulance that is not driving under emergency conditions. I do the same thing on the yellow light and pass the stop line when the light is red. I cause the same accident but this time cause more significant injuries to the other driver because of the increased mass of the ambulance (lets say it is one of the F350's). Will you see this accident in the paper, absolutely (probably in the first few pages). Will it be seen in the news on tv, you bet it will. This is because society holds an expectation that I as a paramedic operate a vehicle in a manner that this will not happen. They consider they have a right to know when I have failed in that expectation.

Scenario 3

Same intersection in the same manner, this time in a HR truck (tipper with a load of rocks). I do the same thing on the yellow lights and pass the stop line after the red. I cause the same accident but this time I cause massive destruction to the other car and the occupant is killed. Will this hit the paper, will it be on the news? Of course it will, and you will all be talking about me here. This is because as a truck driver, operating a more complex vehicle and licensed to do so, society hold me to a higher level of responsibility.

By the way I am qualified, licensed and have professionally in all these types of motor vehicle.

Any professional driver that can not comprehend this higher responsibility and respect it, should find a new profession.

4Vman · 22-01-2010, 09:27 PM

Agree Gecko, i must say, of all the trucks on the roads i feel most comfortable driving amongst branded fuel tanker drivers... always within the speed limit, always careful, always courteous...
I believe they are the cream of the industry, and it shows.

geckoGT · 22-01-2010, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Agree Gecko, i must say, of all the trucks on the roads i feel most comfortable driving amongst branded fuel tanker drivers... always within the speed limit, always careful, always courteous...
I believe they are the cream of the industry, and it shows.

Might be because they understand the magnitude of their accidents and the fact they are likely to die too.

4Vman · 22-01-2010, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geckoGT

Might be because they understand the magnitude of their accidents and the fact they are likely to die too.

Its amazing what having a clear, mature and unclouded understanding of your own (and others) mortality does.....

durtyharry · 22-01-2010, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geckoGT

Any professional driver that can not comprehend this higher responsibility and respect it, should find a new profession.

I agree, however, calling a large number of people that drive heavy vehicles for a living 'professionals' is really pushing the current understanding of the word.

Many are anything but(just idiots with heavy vehicle licences), breaking all sorts of laws in order to meet the expectations of their employer/customers, true professionals don't do that.

Unfortunately they dont care about how they behave and the only way is to legislate these dills out of the business.

**Silver Ghia** · 22-01-2010, 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Agree Gecko, i must say, of all the trucks on the roads i feel most comfortable driving amongst branded fuel tanker drivers... always within the speed limit, always careful, always courteous...
I believe they are the cream of the industry, and it shows.

Agreed, but the Ford B-Triples going between Geelong and Broady are better IMO, the absolute cream. They stay in their lane, do not change unnecessarily, do not speed or carry on and just drive perfectly IMO. Shudder to think when they allow other drivers to drive those things.

However I think the behaviour of truck drivers has very noticably improved especially since the Burnley tunnel (I was going to say accident). They do generally stay in their lane out of the rightmost lane and stay at a constant speed, just the odd ones now.

Personally I think its too early to totally blame the pipe truck driver. We dont know why he went over the other side, surely a 4WD is big enough to see before he went to overtake, if he was deliberately overtaking.

Perhaps as someone suggested he was taking avoiding action, a load of concrete pipes on the back would probably not make it handle too well when swerving or braking, and could have been caught out, perhaps by another careless driver. If he was deliberately overtaking however, well that is blatant manslaughter. But I just find it hard to believe one would pull out to overtake when there was obviously a vehicle coming the other way. Surely drivers automatically look first before they pull out? But then I've seen some crazy things on country roads over the years...

mik · 22-01-2010, 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geckoGT

I would say that from my experience, high on drugs and not enough sleep are probably the least common reasons. Yes these reasons get more attention because they normally result in massive carnage out on open roads, but they happen very infrequently.

The real truth is most truck accidents happen in urban areas and although I would not say 9/10 are the fault of the truck, at least half are. The more common reasons are things like excessive speed, driver inattention and failing to obey road rules (red/yellow lights, give way etc).

In my opinion it is not good enough that 50% of the time it is the fault of any particular group of professional drivers, be it taxi, truck, bus or emergency vehicle drivers. Being a professional driver requires you to be better than the average, otherwise you are just a driver and should not be entrusted with that responsibility, no excuses.

no disrespect intended but .......its very easy to take the high moral ground with out all the facts, until most motorist`s out there have driven a large truck, and seen how much harder they are to do the same things that most car drivers take for granted and often are still are fairly useless at in many cases , i`d say that would still make most professional truck drivers 3 times better than most car drivers, however if this bloke went over the solid lines (and thats yet to be proven) , he deserves to get the book thrown, (judgement reserved).

geckoGT · 22-01-2010, 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mik

no disrespect intended but .......its very easy to take the high moral ground with out all the facts, until most motorist`s out there have driven a large truck, and seen how much harder they are to do the same things that most car drivers take for granted and often are still are fairly useless at in many cases , i`d say that would still make most professional truck drivers 3 times better than most car drivers, however if this bloke went over the solid lines (and thats yet to be proven) , he deserves to get the book thrown, (judgement reserved).

Read my other posts, I have a HR license and have driven trucks as a function of my employment, I am also a Paramedic so drive for a living there too. So yes I can take the moral high ground, because they are expectations I expect myself and my peers to reach.

Fireblade · 22-01-2010, 11:15 PM

It is easy to have high expectations of someone, not so easy of that someone to live up to them. I agree driving for a profession must have a high expectation on all facets of driving, but on the other hand you cannot expect no one to ever make a mistake, we are humans and we do make mistakes. I am in charge of about 50 guys in workshop environment with 5 overhead cranes and all sorts of machinery around the place, I have high expectations of myself and my workers, I dont like their mistakes but I have to endure them as we all make them even I do, and sometimes these mistakes can be greivous. I had one the other day where an engineer had implemented a new hardware system on one of our machines that resulted in one of my workers taking a hit to the head causing a neck injury, he was lucky he was wearing a hard hat or not been a half a foot taller or he might not be here today. And this is from a professional engineer who didnt take everything into account. It takes a big man to admit they made a mistake and an even bigger one to wear the consequences of them.

As a professional truckie if he has made a mistake that cost peoples lives he deserves the consequences of his actions, but society used to dictate - innocent before proven guilty now it seems we are all guilty until we have proven our innocence.

gtxb67 · 22-01-2010, 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geckoGT

I do see what you are trying to say . . . . . . responsibility and respect it, should find a new profession.

i must be missing your point totally, because it seems to me that you are suggesting that running into someone in a car, is not as irresponsible as running into someone in a truck

what the media and most of the population think of a situation is not really relevant. the injury is the relevant factor. responsibility is needed for all of the three scenarios you gave. in the first one, you may have scored a pedestrian and killed them, which would make it as bad as killing someone in a truck. the aim is to avoid an accident - and to give yourself the best chance of that, you need to be responsible. for sure, being responsible in a truck means braking much earlier than in a car, but when it is all said and done all three vehicles needed to be stopped at the red light. the consequences are only relevant if the driver was not responsible and then it is all dependent on who else is in the intersection and their position at the time

unless you wish to make the news, responsibility is required for all vehicles - once again, avoiding the impact is the only thing that matters

geckoGT · 22-01-2010, 11:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by F6 FOON

As a professional truckie if he has made a mistake that cost peoples lives he deserves the consequences of his actions, but society used to dictate - innocent before proven guilty now it seems we are all guilty until we have proven our innocence.

Not really in this case as it was said very early that all this is in speculation that he did cross a solid line to overtake before colliding with the 4WD. If this is not the case and the law can not prove that he did this, all this discussion is hypothetical.

GT-E · 22-01-2010, 11:34 PM

The first people/police and the government need to do is stop calling these incidents ACCIDENTS, they are not an accident, but a crash.
Some iddiot was doing somthing wrong and that is what caused the C R A S H.
I am sick of Accident being used to soften the result.
I also wished the courts would hand out stiffer penalties. That moron who killed 6 kids in country victoria while drunk and letting his kid steer, got 10 years and is appealing the harshness of the sentance.
If my kid was killed by a scum moron like than, I would happily make him dead or a quadraplegic. An eye for an eye if the courts are too lame to do something about it.