Small Toyota outsells Commodore, Falcon in a ‘soft’ September - Page 2

06-10-2005, 06:05 PM

Different strokes for different folks. That's what it is. I don't see many, if any at all, modified Camrys or even the latest Corolla. The owners are not enthusiasts and do not put their cars through abuse. So therefore a standard Camry SHOULD be more relaible than an XR or SS.

Why is it that there is no Camry or Avalon for that matter, that Toyota lovers aspire to buy? Yes there is a supercharged Camry on its way with a balltearing 185kw! Wow! They will not last if they are moded or abused full stop.

**Falcon Coupe** · 06-10-2005, 06:20 PM

People are realists first and enthusiasts second, as much as i would like an XR8 ute for work, i have ordered a Turbo Diesel Hilux (8.5L per 100klm), a good mate of mine is a diehard Ford fan, he wanted to trade his EF for a BA, but he bought a Corolla sports for the fuel saving, it means he can afford to travel to watch motorsport in person instead of on T.V.

Steffo · 06-10-2005, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Homer1

Lexus have RWD V8s in thier range and are still regarded as the best built cars in the world.

By who?

Bossxr8 · 06-10-2005, 09:29 PM

The thing I don't get is why do people buy so many Corolla's to start with. They are an old model due for a total re hash and there are so many better small cars out there than it eg. Focus, Mazda 3, Golf etc. Wheels recently did a 9 small car test and if I can remember correctly the Corolla came second last. Its nothing special. Do uninformed people buy it on name alone?

buickman · 06-10-2005, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

The thing I don't get is why do people buy so many Corolla's to start with. They are an old model due for a total re hash and there are so many better small cars out there than it eg. Focus, Mazda 3, Golf etc. Wheels recently did a 9 small car test and if I can remember correctly the Corolla came second last. Its nothing special. Do uninformed people buy it on name alone?

One word tight wads with no tast in automobiles.

buickman

AU-MUSTD · 06-10-2005, 09:48 PM

Part of the point l was making was that people who buy the corrolla's obviously get a great reliable car and toyota look after them throughout the whole ownership bit and when it comes time to upgrade guess what they get?? I brought two new fords with the first had a great car and great service so eagerly upgraded untill l got stuffed around on the second with warranty issue's and so guess what my third upgrade was too??? A second hand ford as l love my fords but will never buy a new ford again.

XLS99 Ute man · 06-10-2005, 09:50 PM

who wouldent buy the hilux, what an awesoome looking ute!
its big and it makes a statement, not to mention the build quality!

i know what im gunna buy next Sr5 here i come!

Steffo · 06-10-2005, 11:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

The thing I don't get is why do people buy so many Corolla's to start with. They are an old model due for a total re hash and there are so many better small cars out there than it eg. Focus, Mazda 3, Golf etc. Wheels recently did a 9 small car test and if I can remember correctly the Corolla came second last. Its nothing special. Do uninformed people buy it on name alone?

Fleet sales. The vast majority of Corolla sales are fleet sales, just like Commodore and Falcon. If company cars and fleet sales ceased to exist, we could kiss the Falcon and Commodore goodbye... along with locally made Camrys, alot of Magnas, Corolla would become a comparatively low volume import.. etc etc. If company cars and fleet sales didn't exist, the new car market would be shaped more along the lines of what people buy for themselves with their own money, cars like the Mazda 3, for example, would be on the top of the chain....

Biggoggs · 07-10-2005, 12:14 AM

Quote:

I don't think there is much difference in quality as far as fit and finish and general panel fit is concerned. The Japanese were ahead of the game but the other car makers have caught up, IMO.

I think Toyotas have always been built that way, and while the newer Fords/Holdens have definately improved, I'm not totally sure about being on-par. Maybe give a new local ten or twenty years and compare them

Quote:

Originally Posted by SSbaby

Well I think the fact that Toyota doesn't really make any powerful vehicles has a lot to do with their 'reliability'. It's really a safe strategy to stick to developing 4 cylinder FWDs especially for their bottom line.
Now if Toyota really had the best interests of the enthusiast at heart, they would develop affordable, RWD V8s... and then see their warranty issues skyrocket!

I agree with the Toyota comment, not with the RWD v8 one (I think the v8's are a local market). Toyota just don't make any fun vehicles anymore that attract the car-exhausting crowd; the only one I can think of is the Supra series, which are still fetching a decent price. I mean, the hardy old Celicas are starting to wear down now that everyone wants an AE86 to drift around in.

I think with fuel prices and city traffic as it is, it seems people are buying smaller, less-thirsty cars, and the most reliable and value-holding small cars appear to be coming from Toyota. Not everyone wants to fork out $60-$100 p/week feeding a large car, and if they only drive around suburbia and city, a small/medium car is all they need.
As for `big car, big country', while it's true out in the bush, the people living in suburbia already kid themselves with the Tourac Tractors. The country is big, the streets, carparks, and cities aren't.

paul7v7 · 07-10-2005, 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steffo

By who?

do some research (you're so good at it) and you will find out. BMW for one. The original LS400 was the basis for the BMW v8 in the M5. The lexus engine is a bloody strong one at that with 6 bolt mains STOCK, forged pistons STOCK.

paul7v7 · 07-10-2005, 07:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XLS99 Ute man

who wouldent buy the hilux, what an awesoome looking ute!
its big and it makes a statement, not to mention the build quality!

i know what im gunna buy next Sr5 here i come!

i guess we're all different, i think the hilux is the biggest abomination of the current 4wd market. It looks, weired. I would take a Navara over the Hilux. Looks so much better, stronger and still a bloody good buy.

OzJavelin · 07-10-2005, 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by buickman

One word tight wads with no tast in automobiles.

buickman

Nailed it in one Buickman! [ Do you really own that sweet '63/64 Riv?? ] ... but I might be persuaded to lease a Corolla with a RWD 4.0L V8 in it!!! Come on Toyota, get some excitement!!!

Des · 07-10-2005, 09:22 AM

Toyota's are selling because of a "percieved" build quality. They still have quality issues, (maybe(?) not as many as others though). I personally know 3 people who have had major issues with Toyota (both dealers and build quality), yet only 1 person whose had major issues with Ford or Holden. This is despite knowing probably twice as many Ford or Holden owners (most of them V8/Turbo enthusiests). RATT hit it on the head, Toyota build mobile whitegoods at the moment. Check out the standard of some of the interior plastics, better used in whitegoods!
Here's the clincher....How people do you know wake up after dreaming about a Toyota? How many people say "When I win Lotto, I'm going to buy/mod a Toyota model x!"

Steffo · 07-10-2005, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by paul7v7

do some research (you're so good at it) and you will find out. BMW for one. The original LS400 was the basis for the BMW v8 in the M5. The lexus engine is a bloody strong one at that with 6 bolt mains STOCK, forged pistons STOCK.

I agree, the 1UZ-FE was a good engine, but I've never known anyone to regard Lexus as the best in the world. In fact, everything I've seen/heard/read gives that honour to companies like VW/Audi, Porsche, Mercedes-Benz etc etc...

SSbaby · 07-10-2005, 12:37 PM

LS400 just doesn't produce anywhere near the grunt that the BOSS does. It's torque that kills drivelines... and sometimes engines themselves. A 4.0L V8 wouldn't pull skin from custard. So 6 bolt mains is a bit excessive. However, LS1s have 6 bolt mains for a good reason... it's to look after the aftermarket which is a fair portion of Holden buyers. Similar story at Ford.

Btw, how many Astra and Focus buyers complain about their engines/drivelines. Not too many judging from reactions to forums... much like the normal Toyota crowd.

07-10-2005, 01:08 PM

Des, Steffo, SSBaby, you guys make valid comments. And I think there is confusion between what the topic at hand is. The Lexus V8's may as well be the best built in the word. But to me, who cares?!! I have no aspiration to ever own one only because it's well built car.

Now let's take the topic further. All the drones that buy Toyota Corollas/ Camrys/Lexus (Lexi?) have to look no further than wheel/ tyre sizes on their vehicles compared to their competition. Camrys look like they are oversized for the wheels it has. As does the Hilux for that matter. That is compromising safety.

What about active and passive safty features? Ford and Holden are second to none for the dollars payed. Yes weight has something to do with safety as well. Fords dual stage deployment of airbags which is dependant on how severe a crash is. Nope Toyota definately don't have that.

But no matter what the general public are only buying because of perceived quality.

buickman · 07-10-2005, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OzJavelin

Nailed it in one Buickman! [ Do you really own that sweet '63/64 Riv?? ] ... but I might be persuaded to lease a Corolla with a RWD 4.0L V8 in it!!! Come on Toyota, get some excitement!!!

The US version of the Toyota Avalon has a 206Kw V6 mtr. So if that is released here it competes with mainly the Mits 380 but also the Falcons & Holdens.

No the 64 Riv's not mine I took a pic of it at a the fall swapmeet at carlisle Pennsylvania in 2002. fairly rare to see one of these modified most are resto's.

buickman

**Falcon Coupe** · 07-10-2005, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by paul7v7

i guess we're all different, i think the hilux is the biggest abomination of the current 4wd market. It looks, weired. I would take a Navara over the Hilux. Looks so much better, stronger and still a bloody good buy.

The front of the Hilux is a little strange, but the wrap around factory bull bar fixes that, the turbo diesel scoop reminds me of an XY shaker, as for the Navara i tested a couple, for a start, they are tiny inside, im 6"2 and couldnt get the seat back far enough to be comfortable, they are quite sluggish compared to the Hilux, they don't have ABS or auto options and when closing the door they feel quite hollow like a tin can, ohh, and they still have the primitive get out of the car to lock the hubs in style for wheel drive.
That said, the new version is out next month, it looks like a huge improvement.

New Navara

New Hilux

SSbaby · 07-10-2005, 05:21 PM

Yes, it's amazing how many members are telling me about Toyota quality when few actually own one... hhhmmm, just reiterating we do actually own a 2004 Camry.

Just goes to show, the Toyota perception (wrt quality) is strong and (it seems) unshakeable.

Dave_au · 07-10-2005, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SSbaby

Yes, it's amazing how many members are telling me about Toyota quality when few actually own one... hhhmmm, just reiterating we do actually own a 2004 Camry.

Just goes to show, the Toyota perception (wrt quality) is strong and (it seems) unshakeable.

We've got 4 in the extended family, Corolla, 2 camrys, a kluger, no issues what so ever, so I'm reliterating my experience of four vs your one! And before you ask, no, I don't own one, although I do drive a 75 series troopie and a hilux for the fire service.

Not that anyone cares but my brother is also a fleet controller for one of the big leasing companies, he doesn't drive a toyota, but says the toyota's have less faults and less warranty work than the other three.

Likewise our family mechanic says he would be out of work if everyone drove a toyota.

So I think our opinions would cancel each other out?

SSbaby · 07-10-2005, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave_au

We've got 4 in the extended family, Corolla, 2 camrys, a kluger, no issues what so ever, so I'm reliterating my experience of four vs your one! And before you ask, no, I don't own one, although I do drive a 75 series troopie and a hilux for the fire service.

Not that anyone cares but my brother is also a fleet controller for one of the big leasing companies, he doesn't drive a toyota, but says the toyota's have less faults and less warranty work than the other three.

Likewise our family mechanic says he would be out of work if everyone drove a toyota.

So I think our opinions would cancel each other out?

Dave, maybe we're arguing for the same side. I merely offered a few opinions (and we all have them). I stated that Toyotas are generally reliable becuase they don't have to buy any h/duty hardware that have to sit behind hi torque engines. I used the Astra/Focus examples to back up my argument of the Toyota model.

I also observed the comments from some quarters here, that rave about Toyotas being almost blemish free. Well, I offered an example to highlight that that isn't necessariy the case. There is always bound to be more satisfied owners than non-satisfied owners. I take your point. And it is valid.

But if the automotive world were to produce whitegoods on wheels... that's when mugs like me will stop posting on enthusiast's forums such as this one. There is no excitement in owning a Toyota, period.

Paxton · 07-10-2005, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SSbaby

But if the automotive world were to produce whitegoods on wheels... that's when mugs like me will stop posting on enthusiast's forums such as this one. There is no excitement in owning a Toyota, period.

This explains why the Klugger and the Avalon are selling so poorly. They may be good quality, however they are crap to drive, and they look atrocious. The only good looking Toyota is the Prado, and it isn't all that good anyway. I swore myself off Toyota in 1995, when I got rid of my Corolla for an XR6. The Corolla is still going, however it was the pits in terms of driving engagement. The XR6 was spectacular to drive, and looked good.

Another thing I hate about Toyota is the way they advertise the 4 Cyl Camry as a Medium Car, whilst the V6 is a Large car, even though they are identical in dimensions. Maybe we should contact the ACCC?

-Andrew

Dave_au · 07-10-2005, 08:10 PM

Fair enough, no tears on this side of the room mate!

SSbaby · 07-10-2005, 08:20 PM

No, it's good to have a good discussion! ;)

To take my point one step further, the only other Jap automaker that almost matches Toyota for reliability is Honda... the rest of the Jap makers (Subaru, Nissan, Mitsubishi etc...) don't have the same quality/reliability record. Subaru, Mitsu and Nissan are reknowned for their performance pedigree...

Cheers

SpoolMan · 07-10-2005, 08:24 PM

I work for Visy Industries all staff that have company cars did have a choice between a Holden Commodore or Ford Falcon.
This year Toyota signed a deal to be 100% supplier of Visy's cars through out Australia.

Paxton · 07-10-2005, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XRFPV8

I work for Visy Industries all staff that have company cars did have a choice between a Holden Commodore or Ford Falcon.
This year Toyota signed a deal to be 100% supplier of Visy's cars through out Australia.

If I had a company car, this would be the case where I work also. When I started, I was offered, and drove a Holden Calais for a while, with my then Fiancé driving my Patrol. It was not until I got settled was I allowed to choose my car, which was a Falcon XR6. Not the above mentioned one although. My Work has no deals with Toyota, with their reasoning being: 'We are a big company in a big country, with a sales team needing the most comfortable car available on the market, and that is why we choose to drive Rear Wheel Drive cars. We will NOT approve FWD cars, due to the restrictions on these conditions.'

I liked the old model Camry, and the Vienta Grandé in the square shape was actually quite a nice car.

-Andrew

Dave_au · 07-10-2005, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SSbaby

No, it's good to have a good discussion! ;)

To take my point one step further, the only other Jap automaker that almost matches Toyota for reliability is Honda... the rest of the Jap makers (Subaru, Nissan, Mitsubishi etc...) don't have the same quality/reliability record. Subaru, Mitsu and Nissan are reknowned for their performance pedigree...

Cheers

Something that is starting to make me frown a little, and question reliability of the Japanese brands is that quite a few of them have suddenly taken to building vehicles in Thailand.

Now I've always been of the opinion that the Merc and BMW models built in South Africa are not as good as the european models - hell, you pay enough for the "euro brand" quality out here, it should be built in Europe, I really think the same should apply to Japanese models.

But anyway, I'm starting to wonder whether we will start to see less quality in the Japanese brands - they have certainly taken a battering from Korea - so long as they have high quality in the JDM models, will the rest of the world take notice if global export models have a lower build quality?

XLS99 Ute man · 07-10-2005, 08:34 PM

toyota also sells much more cause we got so many asians
and they stick with there kind

Dave_au · 07-10-2005, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by paxtonandrew

My Work has no deals with Toyota, with their reasoning being: 'We are a big company in a big country, with a sales team needing the most comfortable car available on the market, and that is why we choose to drive Rear Wheel Drive cars. We will NOT approve FWD cars, due to the restrictions on these conditions.'

Bit narrowsighted by your company if you consider general duties police have been using Magna and Camry for quite a period of time now, and Magna Sports/VRX models in both fwd and awd guises have started to quickly take up more than it's fair share of unmarked highway patrol car duties.

Dave_au · 07-10-2005, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XLS99 Ute man

toyota also sells much more cause we got so many asians
and they stick with there kind

Haha, maybe in your neck of the woods mate, round here they have taken to Mercs and 5 series BMWs pretty strongly.