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The Pub For General Automotive Related Talk |
View Poll Results: What out of the two options do you believe is safer? | |||
A late 70's Fairlane or equivalent, size does matter. |
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25 | 14.45% |
A late model hatch such as Focus or equivalent, it is not the size but how you use it. |
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148 | 85.55% |
Voters: 173. You may not vote on this poll |
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#61 | |||
Ich bin ein auslander
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Loving the Endorphine Machine
Posts: 7,453
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Quote:
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#62 | ||
Thailand Specials
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Centrefold Lounge
Posts: 49,116
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Whats the deal with commercial vehicles being very unsafe?
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#63 | |||
Oo\===/oO
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Tamworth
Posts: 11,348
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Quote:
No, that is incorrect. I've been to a course dealing on the materials in cars. The boron steel hasa yield point of about 1,350–1,400 N/mm2 (196,000–203,000 psi), That’s about four times stronger than average high-strength steel, and are less likely to rust then the cold rolled steel used in older cars.
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#64 | |||
zdcol71
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: brisbane
Posts: 1,095
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Quote:
(Ps Sorry again as this is off topic)
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#65 | |||
Ich bin ein auslander
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Loving the Endorphine Machine
Posts: 7,453
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Quote:
Car (large sedan) v B double at 100 km/h for truck and 120 km/h+ for car head on, driver dead and ejected from car, truck driver not a mark (impact snapped bull bar off the truck and took off the right front wheel and snapped the suspension. Porsche v semi trailer, truck approx 60 km/h, Porsche unknown but 60 km/h + is highly likely, two dead in porsche, not a mark on the truck driver. 80's model Landcruiser head on into road train (Landcruiser approx 100, road train approx 90), two dead in Landcruiser, truck driver without a scratch. The Landcruiser debris was spread over 200m. They are the larger cases that I have attended involving trucks with prime movers (cab over trucks LR to MR class are different and in many cases your comment would be true).
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Growing old is compulsory, growing up is optional! |
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#66 | |||
Ich bin ein auslander
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Loving the Endorphine Machine
Posts: 7,453
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Quote:
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#67 | ||
BLUE OVAL INC.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 8,645
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This is giving me a headache...
So basically the story goes that your safer in the small car unless you hit a larger vehicle head on?? Surely a head on capable of killing passengers in a new vehicle would have just as much impact on the old car driver via lack of safety features What id like to know is the percentage of accidents that are head on. I would think that headons are quite rare and so the chances of being involved would be less. With this in mind, the small car must be safer as it is designed to withstand the majority of accidents. Side impact- both lethal, but atleast modern cars have safety features. Rear enders- both survivable to a point but modern head restraints work much better when adjusted correctly Roll overs- both lethal but safer in modern cars Head ons- safer in the modern car unless the other vehicle is a larger new vehicle which wins on weight/safety combined. |
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#68 | |||
Ich bin ein auslander
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Loving the Endorphine Machine
Posts: 7,453
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Quote:
In my experience the commercial vehicles on sale today are very good, many to the standard of current cars (eg Mercedes Sprinter).
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Growing old is compulsory, growing up is optional! |
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#69 | |||
Thailand Specials
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Centrefold Lounge
Posts: 49,116
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Quote:
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#70 | |||
Ich bin ein auslander
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Loving the Endorphine Machine
Posts: 7,453
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Quote:
Have a look at table 4.2 on page 33. There are some very interesting statistics such as the disproportionately high number of fatalities from head on compared to the number of these crashes. polar opposite to rear impacts which have a very low proportion of fatalities to a high number of crashes. Angle are a high percentage of crashes and pretty high number of fatalities. QLD crash statistics 2004 I know this is only queensland and quite old figures but it gives a good idea of the stats you are after and they were all I could find without spending too much of my life on it, hope it helps.
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Growing old is compulsory, growing up is optional! |
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#71 | |||
Ich bin ein auslander
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Loving the Endorphine Machine
Posts: 7,453
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Quote:
Toyota Hiace scored 3 star, report is here
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Growing old is compulsory, growing up is optional! |
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#72 | |||
IWCMOGTVM Club Supporter
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern Suburbs Melbourne
Posts: 17,799
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Quote:
Still not there but some are starting to get better. The Merc van just got a 5star rating. The Holden and Ford Utes are 5 star as well.
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Daniel |
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#73 | |||
FORMER T3 OWNER
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 1,241
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Quote:
![]() I cant think/pin point one thing you have said that has an ounce of fact or truth, hence no I don't believe you, id rather listen to experts and make informed decisions. ![]()
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Mischief.TV you can sleep in your car, but you cant drift your house... ![]() |
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#74 | ||
Ich bin ein auslander
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Loving the Endorphine Machine
Posts: 7,453
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I think it is time to chill out a bit guys, don't want the poll closed because of this sort of thing.
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#75 | ||
FORMER T3 OWNER
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 1,241
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accepted, Ive posted my thoughts in the other thread, not going into writing essay's in here.
I believe that some of the video links could be useful to this poll, to let people have an educated decision though?
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Mischief.TV you can sleep in your car, but you cant drift your house... ![]() |
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#76 | |||
Ich bin ein auslander
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Loving the Endorphine Machine
Posts: 7,453
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Quote:
I am working on the assumption they will do a little research, perhaps read the other thread. At least that is what I am hoping is happening. I think it is reasonable to post links to video, references or statistics but lets keep debating each others points out of it. If you post a link, please feel free to make a comment, just please don't pick faults on other people's posts. I think that is the only fair way to keep the play here civil on what can be a rather emotive subject. I hope everyone considers that fair. By the way, my comments are not directly aimed at you UN8D, there have been a few instances so far and I am addressing all of them.
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#77 | |||
Constant annoyance
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Japan
Posts: 567
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Quote:
If your steel is properly prepared and coated rust shouldn't be an issue, you'd be a fool to rely on steel to protect itself from the elements. My point was, as many advances in metals technologies there have been (which is very few as compared to the early 1900's). The better materials will always cost more, and car manufacturers would rather use the cheapest imported steels and plastics. Than invest serious money in materials that only improve the overall properties of the vehicle by a few percent. So I wouldn't count on your next falcon being made solely out of the next wonder alloy or plastic composite.
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GT Club - no longer for ford enthusiasts, now for fat old men who need air con and power steering for the maccas drive through. |
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#78 | ||
Ich bin ein auslander
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Loving the Endorphine Machine
Posts: 7,453
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The aim of this thread is not to debate theory on the manufacture of cars. If you have some evidence of the strength of the cars you refer to, then please post it up. If it is theory then how about we keep on topic.
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#79 | |||
Former BTIKD
![]() Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Sunny Downtown Wagga Wagga. NSW.
Posts: 53,197
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Quote:
Except to help increase members post counts.
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Dying at your job is natures way of saying that you're in the wrong line of work.
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#80 | |||
Ich bin ein auslander
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Loving the Endorphine Machine
Posts: 7,453
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Quote:
Read the opening post and you will find that was quite clear, to get an idea of what the general opinion for both sides is in terms of a percentage of who believes what. Personally I see no need to increase my post count, its not like there is a prize. By your logic, why do we need millions of threads asking what the best CAI or exhaust is for a Boss or which fuel is best? Might be because it is a motoring forum and people come on here to talk mainly about motoring related topics (of which this is motoring related).
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Growing old is compulsory, growing up is optional! |
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#81 | |||
BLUE OVAL INC.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 8,645
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Quote:
The results show that only 2% of all accidents are head on collisions. With this in mind, and using the theory given by some that a large, heavy? vehicle is safer in a head on than the Focus, the result shows the Fairlane is only safer in 2% of all crashes. Meaning the Focus is safer in 98% of all crashes give or take. The stats also supports the theory that both parties are in trouble in this type of crash. |
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#82 | ||
Lucky, lucky bastard!
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Sydney, NSW
Posts: 1,321
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I voted that new cars are generally safer. If i can be honest, prior to reading these two threads, i incorrectly assumed 'bigger is always better'. I put this down to my lack of understanding of the basic physics and of how far motor vehicle technology has come. So if this thread (and the other) has achieved anything, it has furthered my understanding on the topic based on the evidence provided.
To summarise the evidence provided so far in both threads (that has led to my improved understanding on the topic): Evidence towards New Cars being safer: Video Evidence Crash Test 1959 Chevrolet Bel Air VS. 2009 Chevrolet Malibu - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJrXV...eature=related Fifth Gear - Renault Modus vs Volvo 940 crash test - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emtLLvXrrFs Smart ForTwo Coupe Crash Test @ 5th Gear - Crash Test Dummy - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RAN4gTtc4s 9 family cars battle it out - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQH6MLTSDZ4 Mini Car Crash Test - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avc70WVqqKg Crash Test 2008 Subaru Impreza - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1iqSevctl1I Crash Test ADAC Volkswagen Golf VI (2008) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SLTLfEb9F0&feature=fvst Crash Test Ford Focus II 2005 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IC71R-vdbtI Crash Test 2004 - 2009 Mazda 3 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHMN4wH9a6w ANCAP Ford FG Falcon crash tests - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3DGo3eqlZY 1980's Australian Holden Commodore Crash Test - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HoFisLsrBjo Crash Test Betwen old and new cars - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3l4YBf2tjag Textual Evidence Australian 2009 Road Toll Report - http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/roa...pdf/rsr_04.pdf Accident Statistical Data - http://fordforums.com.au/vbportal/mo...category&cid=5 AFF 2005 Brake Test - http://fordforums.com.au/vbportal/mo...article&id=220 Chances of dying in an automobile accident in 1953 vs 2003 - http://www.fordforums.com.au/showpos...&postcount=318 Evidence towards Old Cars being safer: Video Evidence The Influence of Vehicle Size and Weight on Safety in Crashes - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bESXI...eature=channel ABS vs. No ABS - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ly62FoZH_Dc Textual Evidence Casual Influence of Car Mass and Size on Driver Fatality Risk: http://ajph.aphapublications.org/cgi.../91/7/1076.pdf Volvo's crash-avoidance technology fails: http://www.news.com.au/technology/vo...-1225864345113 Other % of 5 most common crash types - http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/licensing/...rashtypes.html AU SWB ABS Wiring Diagram - http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a283/UNR8D/abs.jpg Review the evidence folks and make your own minds up.
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2015 Mondeo Trend 2.0T Diesel, Deep Impact Blue 2012 FPV GT-P 6spd Auto, Lightning Strike Last edited by Inducted_Breeze; 26-08-2010 at 03:33 PM. |
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#83 | ||
Lucky, lucky bastard!
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Sydney, NSW
Posts: 1,321
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Not to mention the eye witness testimonies provided by geckoGT provided in both threads.
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2015 Mondeo Trend 2.0T Diesel, Deep Impact Blue 2012 FPV GT-P 6spd Auto, Lightning Strike |
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#84 | |||
zdcol71
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: brisbane
Posts: 1,095
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Quote:
Be careful with statistics, this is a very good example of how they are often maligned,often times in these forums. It does not mean (necessarily), that the focus is safer in 98%of all crashes. (I do understand where you are coming from though)
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#85 | |||
Fixing Ford's **** ups
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: In a house
Posts: 4,759
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Quote:
No. This thread doesn't need a to and froing that interlinks with a closed thread. So I think it's time you moved on from this line of querying
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A wheel alignment fixes everything, when it comes to front end issues. This includes any little noises. Please read the manual carefully, as the these manufacturers spent millions of dollars making sure it is perfect.....Now why are there so many problems with my car, when I follow the instructions to the letter?....Answer, majority rules round here Lock me up and throw away the key because I'm a hoon....I got caught doing 59 in a 60 zone |
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#86 | |||
Fixing Ford's **** ups
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: In a house
Posts: 4,759
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Quote:
Only needs one item to fail for injuries to occur. Now I'd really suggest you drop this line of querying, as it's only going to get this thread closed. GECKO and MODS. I do apologise if I am taking this thread off topic. The replies directed at me seem to be aimed at taking this thread along the path of the previous thread, which is now closed. I'm hoping the end of this nitpicking will cease right here and now. I have case my vote and a real brief explanation behind my vote. Surely that should be sufficient
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A wheel alignment fixes everything, when it comes to front end issues. This includes any little noises. Please read the manual carefully, as the these manufacturers spent millions of dollars making sure it is perfect.....Now why are there so many problems with my car, when I follow the instructions to the letter?....Answer, majority rules round here Lock me up and throw away the key because I'm a hoon....I got caught doing 59 in a 60 zone |
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#87 | |||
Oo\===/oO
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Tamworth
Posts: 11,348
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Quote:
In other words, you have been proven wrong, you can't provide any helpfull reasoning to some of your theories. Inducted_Breeze has provided a well researched post, covering both sides of the topic, providing some in depth info onto the reasoning's why a newer car is safer, both in active and passive safety. This graph (from wiki) give a good indication on the matter. ![]() (Note Australia as almost halved, while america has only dropped a small 1o%, or there abouts...lack of inforced seatblet use?) The reduction in road toll, while more cars are being used suggest that there is something right happening.
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#88 | |||
Ich bin ein auslander
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Loving the Endorphine Machine
Posts: 7,453
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Quote:
Also, vehicle mass can in some circumstances work against you, sometimes it may be advantageous to have light weight that changes direction easier and bounces back off the other object during the impact rather than trying to push through it, as was seen in the 5th gear crash test with the smart into the concrete block at 70 mph (an impact type no vehicle short of a FI race car is likely to be survivable). Remember the commodore into the barrier at roughly the same speed, its butt tried to push through its head like a fly on the windscreen, momentum can be a bad thing. Something I have noticed so far is the majority of people here when discussing crash safety are primarily focussed on road toll statistics. I think there are many reasons for this such as this is what is featured in the media the most in regards to road safety. This is also the area that is easiest to find statistics on with only reasonable effort. It is also the "worst case" scenario and therefore the forefront of most peoples mind (people by nature have a fascination with disaster). My focus is a little different and I am going to d a bit more research by taking the focus away from death statistics and instead look at hospitalisations (ie significant injury). This may take some time as I am on night shift at the moment and likely to be in and out all night and then sleeping during the day but humour me. I think it is more effective when comparing car safety over the decades to look at serious injury as this is perhaps a better indicator of safety improvements rather than death rates. It is my experience and certainly the experience of just about every paramedic, ED nurse and ED doctor in the world that in the vast majority of crashes that involve deaths, the forces involved were beyond the realm of where survival can be expected. Of course there are always exceptions and occasionally we see someone walk out of a wreck that should have contained a body, I have seen this many times. The thing is we rarely see a body in a wreck that they should have been able to walk out from, normally when we see the car and hear the conditions of the crash, the fatality is no surprise. In terms of car safety, the developments are focussed in both raising the threshold of crash severity before deaths occur and lowering the injury rates in "survivable" crashes. My theory is that it is the lowering of injury rates and severity in survivable crashes that the greatest improvement has been made rather than increasing the survival rates of the more severe crashes. Stick with me and we will see what I come up with.
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#89 | ||
Regular Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 53
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I'll admit i chose the Fairlane only because of the fact that i wrote off the same ZB Fairlane twice in the 1980's & both times i was ok without a scratch.Both were front end hits. I'll also admit that the video of the two chevs opened my eyes up & shows how safe the modern car is.
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#90 | ||
XM FALCON
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Hervey Bay
Posts: 515
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I was wondering how much the statisics have changed due to societys views on drink driving rather than the cars being safer?
Even though i prefer to own classic cars and allways will, i know new ones are designed to protect the occupants |
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