My views on the Performance Car Market

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by geckoGT

I hate to say it but I do not see a boosted FPV in the near future, guarantee not in 2010. The average FPV owner does not want a track weapon that can do 0-100 in sub 5 secs and 400 in 12's but is devoid of all the luxuries and has harsh performance suspension. Sure they would have that performance but would enough buy it at the compromise of creature comforts.

That compromise is the only way they could make such a car under the $100k mark. Lets face it, at the moment the ceiling price for an aussie performance car that sells enough volume to make it viable is under $100k.

There are others on here who might be prepared to share more on this, so i won't steal their thunder, but lets just say they've intimated its a real possibility, and no where near as costly as you'd think..
Given the shakeiness of geelong's viability, euro 4 looming a new V8 pending and global rationalisation of models allot of things are starting to add up.

[Falcon Coupe]

Originally Posted by mrbaxr6t

you really think with things the way they are now with all automakers in trouble Ford will invest in a boosted v8? :

and lets say for arguments sake they do make a twinturbo v8, the V8 purists won't buy them! why? because the V8 noises are masked by the turbo noises. The argument many have posed to buy a V8 over a I6T is the sound - turboing a V8 will stuff the sound up. I6T owners as stated will run out and trade up to a turbo V8 but I can't see current N/A V8 owners buying them due to the sound they make.

You may be right , but then again....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfoJlbL3dCc

[schnoods]

Originally Posted by cs123

Ditto. An I think that is the attitude of most XR6T/F6 owners. They picked what they consider to be the best tool for the job rather than a philosophical choice. Just about everyone would happily move into a v8 turbo if it offered better bang for buck.

Be interesting to see the reaction of the "v8 must be NA" groupies if a turbo v8 hits the street.

Turbo v8 is nothing new, The landcruiser has had them out for a while, bentley did it almost 20 years ago.

Dunno about the V8 must be N/A mentality either, the massive amount of blower options for the Boss as well as the odd turbo install is incredible, the other camp has even more too with twin turbo and single turbo kits in alot of vehicles.

Then all you have to do is read a street machine mag, or follow any major Car event like summernats or powercruise to see that N/A is not king in most cases.

Massive aftermarket for most cars, Factory dissappointments will be improved by many enthusiasts looking for more.

[GT0132]

Originally Posted by schnoods

Turbo v8 is nothing new, The landcruiser has had them out for a while, bentley did it almost 20 years ago.

Dunno about the V8 must be N/A mentality either, the massive amount of blower options for the Boss as well as the odd turbo install is incredible, the other camp has even more too with twin turbo and single turbo kits in alot of vehicles.

Then all you have to do is read a street machine mag, or follow any major Car event like summernats or powercruise to see that N/A is not king in most cases.

Massive aftermarket for most cars, Factory dissappointments will be improved by many enthusiasts looking for more.

Case in Point GTP-370 & CDAA

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by geckoGT

I hate to say it but I do not see a boosted FPV in the near future, guarantee not in 2010. The average FPV owner does not want a track weapon that can do 0-100 in sub 5 secs and 400 in 12's but is devoid of all the luxuries and has harsh performance suspension. Sure they would have that performance but would enough buy it at the compromise of creature comforts.

You will feel silly next year.

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Will you feel silly next year or what. :

To be honest, I don't think so. They might make it but the question is will it be a volume seller?

We will just have to wait and see.

I will be prepared to eat humble pie if I have to, just hope the other side will.

[bingoTE50]

Performance future - smaller engines more boost , VW are doing it now. Supercharged and turbocharged on the same engine. Diesel powered performance vehicle .Would you buy it ?
Like it or not ,there will be fuel economy target figures come into play .
Emission controls will get tighter . A smaller twin turbo V8 or supercharged in a lighter bodied Ford perhaps . It will really depend on the available parts bin imo . In ten years if the Falcon GT is a Taurus rebadged , the size of a Mondeo , 4wd , twin turbo 4.2 v8,
is it a GT ? ? After all, most of the Commodores were based on Opel designs , except Holden put V8's in them . Brock Opels ,does'nt sound right.
All imo....

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by geckoGT

To be honest, I don't think so. They might make it but the question is will it be a volume seller?

We will just have to wait and see.

Ford won't do small volume hi po models, it needs numbers. They saw how the W427 went.

Apple pie ok?

[4Vman]

Here's my feelings:
FPV know ATLEAST 66% of their customers prefer V8's, HSV know 100% of their customers prefer V8's...
Id say most of the people who buy the F6 do so because its the best performer, and/or they like/prefer turbo's, they're not necessarily I6 customers per say...
"IF" a turbo V8 was an option at a small premium AND as we know the MAJORITY of HSV/FPV customers prefer V8's then it stands to reason FPV would have to look very seriously at consolidating their range.
Its a "no loose" situation, with everything to gain..
The market is making a clear statement, most prefer V8 powered cars, some prefer turbo powered cars... Take the turbo off the I6 and how many N/A 6's would FPV sell.... Offer a turbo V8 that performs and you tick a heap of boxes together that currently arent....
Barring the brandloyal zealots the customers they stand to gain the most are the die hard "MUST have the best performing V8" customers, who we know are driving a HSV at present... These are the customers who FPV currently miss out on...

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Ford won't do small volume hi po models, it needs numbers. They saw how the W427 went.

Apple pie ok?

I think you are missing my point. I wonder if there is truly a market for a high performance twin turbo V8 in the present world of ever tightening emission control and the average Joe wanting outstanding fuel economy. The V8 is really starting to develop a stigma in todays environment. Can the manufacturers build such a beast for a price that is no more than a GT now. Lets be serious, they are selling GT's now for huge reductions to move stock, for example a new GT with RRP of $66k going out the door for $57k. Do you really think things are going to turn around quick enough for a V8TT FPV to be a sales success within 18 months?

Whats your choice in flavour? What about you 4VMan?

[mrbaxr6t]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Here's my feelings:
FPV know ATLEAST 66% of their customers prefer V8's, HSV know 100% of their customers prefer V8's...
Id say most of the people who buy the F6 do so because its the best performer, and/or they like/prefer turbo's, they're not necessarily I6 customers per say...
"IF" a turbo V8 was an option at a small premium AND as we know the MAJORITY of HSV/FPV customers prefer V8's then it stands to reason FPV would have to look very seriously at consolidating their range.
Its a "no loose" situation, with everything to gain..
The market is making a clear statement, most prefer V8 powered cars, some prefer turbo powered cars... Take the turbo off the I6 and how many N/A 6's would FPV sell.... Offer a turbo V8 that performs and you tick a heap of boxes together that currently arent....
Barring the brandloyal zealots the customers they stand to gain the most are the die hard "MUST have the best performing V8" customers, who we know are driving a HSV at present... These are the customers who FPV currently miss out on...

firstly god created Holden to keep fools out of fords

and secondly I for one do not prefer a V8 as evidenced by the fact all I have ever owned have been straight sixes which I will list below to save you a threadmine

• XC GS sedan - 250 xflow (auto)
• XB sedan - 250 xflow (auto)
• ZL f/lane - EFI 250 xflow (auto)
• EF Futura sedan 4.0 litre (auto)
• Tickford SII AU XR6 sedan w/VCT (auto)
• XF utility 250 xflow (auto)
• BA XR6 turbo (manual)

I have never wanted a V8 as they just plain use too much fuel and cars around comparable prices to these at the time that were v8 were too thirsty for my taste. And it has been proven the I6 is more powerful model to model XR6 vs. XR8 e.g. EF XR6 vs EF XR8 - I was and still am quite young and I never could see the appeal of a V8 (and the fuel bill) so I have stuck to I6 es which allowed me to spend my money on other things like a mortgage and all the other things required to start life.

Originally Posted by Falcon Coupe

You may be right , but then again....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfoJlbL3dCc

holy mother of shyte thats fast and nowhere near street legal clearly and I would hazard a guess that they have spent huge moolah on that car modding an I6T will be substantially cheaper I admit maybe not as fast but I have not seen a full on I6T powered drag car, might give that one a real nudge, and for alot less money.

[nugget378]

Originally Posted by mrbaxr6t

firstly god created Holden to keep fools out of fords

and secondly I for one do not prefer a V8 as evidenced by the fact all I have ever owned have been straight sixes which I will list below to save you a threadmine

• XC GS sedan - 250 xflow (auto)
• XB sedan - 250 xflow (auto)
• ZL f/lane - EFI 250 xflow (auto)
• EF Futura sedan 4.0 litre (auto)
• Tickford SII AU XR6 sedan w/VCT (auto)
• XF utility 250 xflow (auto)
• BA XR6 turbo (manual)

I have never wanted a V8 as they just plain use too much fuel and cars around comparable prices to these at the time that were v8 were too thirsty for my taste. And it has been proven the I6 is more powerful model to model XR6 vs. XR8 e.g. EF XR6 vs EF XR8 - I was and still am quite young and I never could see the appeal of a V8 (and the fuel bill) so I have stuck to I6 es which allowed me to spend my money on other things like a mortgage and all the other things required to start life.

Who cares what you prefer.
This is about people who would actually BUY an fpv/hsv.

[Daymoe]

Originally Posted by nugget378

Who cares what you prefer, really.
This is about people who would actually BUY an fpv/hsv.

I'm sure if we all had the money, we all would. The money is the problem here.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by geckoGT

I think you are missing my point. I wonder if there is truly a market for a high performance twin turbo V8 in the present world of ever tightening emission control and the average Joe wanting outstanding fuel economy. The V8 is really starting to develop a stigma in todays environment. Can the manufacturers build such a beast for a price that is no more than a GT now. Lets be serious, they are selling GT's now for huge reductions to move stock, for example a new GT with RRP of $66k going out the door for $57k. Do you really think things are going to turn around quick enough for a V8TT FPV to be a sales success within 18 months?

Whats your choice in flavour? What about you 4VMan?

If the price was competitive it would sell, my preference is N/A V8's, but im looking at getting the wife a G6ET or TT Ghia, so im not blind to the obvious impressive ability of the I6T, i just can't see how FPV will ever succeed with it while its clear V8's sell far more readily.
A turbo v8 will give them the option of the best of both worlds.

[mrbaxr6t]

Originally Posted by nugget378

Who cares what you prefer.
This is about people who would actually BUY an fpv/hsv.

So I don't count because I have a lowly XR6T?

So sorry.........

Maybe I should spend more on cars and less on houses.

I wasn't the one that made it 6 cyl turbo Vs. v8 btw

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by mrbaxr6t

firstly god created Holden to keep fools out of fords

and secondly I for one do not prefer a V8 as evidenced by the fact all I have ever owned have been straight sixes which I will list below to save you a threadmine

• XC GS sedan - 250 xflow (auto)
• XB sedan - 250 xflow (auto)
• ZL f/lane - EFI 250 xflow (auto)
• EF Futura sedan 4.0 litre (auto)
• Tickford SII AU XR6 sedan w/VCT (auto)
• XF utility 250 xflow (auto)
• BA XR6 turbo (manual)

I have never wanted a V8 as they just plain use too much fuel and cars around comparable prices to these at the time that were v8 were too thirsty for my taste. And it has been proven the I6 is more powerful model to model XR6 vs. XR8 e.g. EF XR6 vs EF XR8 - I was and still am quite young and I never could see the appeal of a V8 (and the fuel bill) so I have stuck to I6 es which allowed me to spend my money on other things like a mortgage and all the other things required to start life.



holy mother of shyte thats fast and nowhere near street legal clearly and I would hazard a guess that they have spent huge moolah on that car modding an I6T will be substantially cheaper I admit maybe not as fast but I have not seen a full on I6T powered drag car, might give that one a real nudge, and for alot less money.

You are clearly out of your depth or just don't understand the topic.

[mrbaxr6t]

the topic is the future of performance vehicles, cheaper to run and maintain cars are the future of the performance market. They need to deliver the performance punch whilst using the least amount of fuel possible, correct me if I am wrong but the cheapest and most readily available way to do this is to turbocharge smaller engines - is it not?

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by mrbaxr6t

the topic is the future of performance vehicles, cheaper to run and maintain cars are the future of the performance market. They need to deliver the performance punch whilst using the least amount of fuel possible, correct me if I am wrong but the cheapest and most readily available way to do this is to turbocharge smaller engines - is it not?

Far too simplistic.. you're ignoring consumer preferences and emotions.
The "future" you speak of has come and gone many times over the past 40 years...
People looking for fuel economy buy hyundais...
Turbo powered vehicles are every bit as thirsty as N/A V8's when pushed hard.

[mrbaxr6t]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Far too simplistic.. you're ignoring consumer preferences and emotions.
People looking for fuel economy buy hyundais...
Turbo powered vehicles are every bit as thirsty as V8's when pushed hard.

I understand what you are saying in regard to people buying a v8 because it is a v8 but I think that customer base as many are stating is shrinking and buyers in the future may not be able to afford a fuel thirsty powerful car. Auto manufacturers are pushing for big power on small fuel bill, HSV are bringing a liquid LPG injected car to the market. I can see this being a good seller for them as it will deliver the power without the running costs. As stated BMW?? have changed their engines for more efficient ones Wouldn't do this if the market wasn't there. Consumer preference has dictated this change of stance by both parties mentioned. Time will tell if economy plays a part in the sale of performance cars. By the looks both BMW and HSV are making performance cars more efficient.

http://www.easycarblog.com/2008/11/b...ed-units.html/

If we read this article clearly it states that tougher emissions standards and soaring production costs are influencing them. In Australia It may not be that bad but this is the future of performance vehicles. Ford and Holden will need to follow this to at the very least remain competitive with them. Be honest I am positive if you could have your car exactly as it sits whilst using half the fuel? I don't know a single person who wouldn't.

[4Vman]

The current economic glitch will pass, its happened before, it will happen again if history is anything to go by.
Its not just the performance segment that's struggling, car sales are down uniform across the entire industry and all segments.
In 2 years we'll be back to prosperity and talking about 8L V10 GTHO's again...

[snappy]

I believe a v8tt would be a really good seller for fpv as you said 4vman the best of both worlds the could have just one motor in the line up and correct me if im wrong but it would be cheaper for them. Another plus every thread would not turn in to v8 vs i6t

[VICFPV]

I am ready to buy a FPV V8 turbo.
They just got to build them.
Too bad I can't take advantage of the power it might have in day to day driving due to the laws of the RTA. Have to pay for tracks days and strip days so I could trash my beloved car. I don't think I will trash it at a track just enjoy a sunday drive with family and avoid all the traffic light drags.
This is what performance car driving has become for some and are avoiding the sector. Oh maybe the carjacking scene might catch onto the local turbo V8s to blow up ATMs.

[mrbaxr6t]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

The current economic glitch will pass, its happened before, it will happen again if history is anything to go by.
Its not just the performance segment that's struggling, car sales are down uniform across the entire industry and all segments.
In 2 years we'll be back to prosperity and talking about 8L V10 GTHO's again...

the economic turmoil may pass yes that is a given, but the emissions standards BMW is being forced to adhere to today may become more widespread and won't go away like an economic crisis. BTW : I enjoy a good argument both reading and being a part of I hope you understand that. If I am honest I enjoy the differences between the two of us - I hope you do too

w00 I am kinda drunk

[TURBOTAXI]

A Turbo V8 would have to steal the performance crown (and our hearts). also - a normally driven turbo engine with an appropriate tune would be more economical (low boost) than the N/A. But once you plant the right boot - she would drink. I would love to see a turbo V8 - I would also love to buy it, but I do so many K's that it just may not be economical.....

[TURBOTAXI]

Originally Posted by flappist

FPV are designing cars to sell to the majority of "australian preformance car enthusiests". They are selling fairly well although there is always background grumbling that "they are not hard enough" and "they are not fast enough".

This is all just a smoke screen as the average FPV buyer has no real interest in actually driving fast for long distances or amateur motor sport they just want to "look good".

The most compelling evidence of this is that the lesser performing engine outsells the greater by a significant margin, the buyers are quite happy to pay $1,000 for stripes and decals but not $3,000 for upgraded brakes and conversations about FPVs revolve around heritage, exhaust note, dyno charts, colour/stripe combinations, badges etc.

There seems to be very little about lap times at lakeside/QR/wakefield et al. or participation targas, rallies, sprint days etc. and even the drag strips are visited more than once by only a small number.

I once tried to organise a cruise up to NT before the speed limits so there would be a group instead of my usual single car blasting about. This was a few weeks before the end and the last chance for anyone to feel the freedom for driving their XR/GT/F6 as fast as they wanted to legally.
I got one person who was interested but could not make it. Other than that NOT ONE SINGLE AFF member was even remotely interested. There was lots of talk about stone chips, cost of fuel, putting too many kilometres on the car, wearing out tyres and all sorts of other excuses that seemed typical of pretenders and "look at me's".

So that is where FPV is, lots of stripe packages because stripe packages rather than performance is what actually sells........

I am guessing the time has passed but is there a group going?

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by TURBOTAXI

I am guessing the time has passed but is there a group going?

Time way past, there are now state wide speed limits in the NT

[Iggypoppin']

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Making an educated observation about the way things REALLY are isn't a criticism....
Its a fact: the I6T powered cars are better performers than the V8 powered cars.. no big deal, but its also a fact their sales don't reflect it, they're simply not as desirable.
The point that's being made is for the wider broader market outright performance is secondary to the "feel good" things like stripes, spoilers, exhaust note and BRAND LOYALTY.
Why else do you think HSV/FPV.V8 sales continue to to be so strong relative to the I6T powered cars that clearly out perform them.?

Here's a question that's sure to raise the blood pressure for a few:
What will happen to the f6 should FPV get a turbo V8 option in 2010....???????

took me thirty minutes 4Vman,
they release a V8t...so they twin turbo the F6 to make sure its just faster than the V8.
jeez though, id rather they release a 1000cube V8 monster then market it in car bodies smaller than a datsun stanza. that would be pretty interesting.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by mrbaxr6t

the economic turmoil may pass yes that is a given, but the emissions standards BMW is being forced to adhere to today may become more widespread and won't go away like an economic crisis. BTW : I enjoy a good argument both reading and being a part of I hope you understand that. If I am honest I enjoy the differences between the two of us - I hope you do too

w00 I am kinda drunk

Its all good!

When ADR27 and more so 27a cam into effect the sky fell in on the Musclecar industry, in the space of a few years nearly everything with half a bit of go about it was gone here, Ford dropped the V8 all together, anything V8 struggled to make 200hp..
F1 is constantly being slowed down to reduce power, restricted and controlled but given the time to research and develop they regain that power.
The situation is no different today, tighter rules just make the car companies more creative and resourceful in their R+D.
Its part of a cycle of the economy, things will improve again.

[XWGT]

The difference this time around is the climate change issue and EMS. It will happen, like it or not. And it will force hybris or electric or whatever cars. It is not going away.

Personally I am quite confident that an electric car will out perform a petrol driven car on a race track sometime soon. The torque electric motors create simply dictates that. And all those other factors already mentioned such as "personal preference, romanticism of performance cars, love or performance, bragging rights" etc will be the exact things that mean a performance electric or hybrid car will join the worlds new car line ups relatively quickly.

I have no issue with it. Its change and its exciting. Having owned old school muscle (XW and XY GT), new school muscle (XR8) and techno muscle (Porsche Boxster S) I am now looking forward to sampling electric muscle.

[cosmo20btt]

I believe the v8 will go on in one fashion or another, some of you say that x or y generation will not buy v8s but on the other hand all my friends have toddlers & they are influenced by there parents or peers as you will see them brandishing Ford or Holden shirts or prams etc. Another point is to the fact that the Federal gov in around 2004-5
killed off the import market for jap performance cars (feb 89 is the cut off year of the import) not to say that cannot get a jap or euro supercars it is just that much harder now. And the gov made is easier to import old lhd v8 from the states. (Queensland you can leave the left hand drive)
Plus v8 supercars was one of the highest rated sports to watch on tv last year.
I think it will be along way away before we lose the v8 but if ford keep making the L6t
better then we might see changes from them. My 2c