V-Facts March 2009

[flappist]

Originally Posted by snappy84

Thats fair enough . But it quite hard to find out if its reliable from a test drive .
I test drove one for my sister the other week it was about 24k . The interior felt like paper mache . The speedo is in the middle of the dash (clearly there for cheaper coversions) . Engine sounds like your squeezing a cat and the thing barely moves with out a lot of throttle applied . Turn a corner that i thought was not to quick and had to stop my head from slamming against the side windows because the car was shaking me like a jack in the box . Auto gearbox was average In comparison to the madza 2 and fiesta it was not in the same class except for value as in bits chucked in . After test driving the yaris i was realived to get in my 88 courier and that says alot.

The rest of what you said was very impressive resale , and no warranty repairs are traits i wish ford could pick up . But that would be all I
I understand that people dont care what they drive some much to them it like buying a tv or fridge . But for me buying a yaris would be like buying a push bike with no seat.

Also to top it off it was voted the gay mans cutest car of the year.

Two points.

The instruments in the middle are set up so that they are a lot further than those in front of you. This means the there is significantly less eye fatigue when scanning from instrument to road ahead. Also when you ate looking at the instruments your side peripheral vision which is usually better than above vision includes the road ahead. It is actually a very smart idea.

In 2003 or 2004 one of the gay magazines, Outrage or Outsomething I think it was called, held a poll for their readers to nominate the best gay vehicle in Australia and the winner was BA XR8 ute.
There are several threads about it on the old fordforum site.

And yes I agree that Yaris's are not particularly wonderful to drive if you are a driving enthusiest, but remember most people aren't. 50% of the people in the world think that a day spent trying on clothes and shoes is better than a day driving a performance car in a place with no speed limits.
Even within the Ford Falcon ranks, most XRs are N/A not T6 or V8 and most Falcons sold are basic auto N/A 6 cylinder with very few options.

I own lots of cars but I have only ever driven my Yaris's, Avalon or Hyundai about 3 or 4 times and never driven my Navara, Aurion or Mitsu 300 vans, I just pay the bills and see what they cost me in operating expenses, lost time due to warranty repairs and resale compared to 5 years ago when my fleet was 1 GT-P, 2 Ghias, 1 Fairmont and 2 Falcons.

The only ford I have at the moment is a 2004 BA2 XT which cost $10k about 6 months ago. Good price for a 4 year old $33,000 car with 50,000km (unless I was selling it of course).

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by flappist

Two points.

The instruments in the middle are set up so that they are a lot further than those in front of you. This means the there is significantly less eye fatigue when scanning from instrument to road ahead. Also when you ate looking at the instruments your side peripheral vision which is usually better than above vision includes the road ahead. It is actually a very smart idea.

It also doesn't comply with ADR laws, Toyota went to court over this so that they wouldn't have to redesign it.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by vztrt

It also doesn't comply with ADR laws, Toyota went to court over this so that they wouldn't have to redesign it.

There was a time when LPG did not comply with ADRs too, parking and cruise control radar are not legal here at this time.

SWS (Safety Warning System) is also illegal in Australia.

I am fairly sure hydrogen powered cars are not legal either yet.

Technology advances far more quickly than the bumbling government vegetables can keep up with.

[new2ford]

Originally Posted by whynot

Joe has hit the nail on the head ...

The fleet market is not buying Falcons for any number of reasons.

1. Most fleet managers (particularly government bodies) now have rather restrictive greenhouse targets they must meet. Ford have only belatedly addressed this issue this month with the Falcon going 5.5 starts and DSC now being available on LPG models. If it is not diesel or has more than four cylinders, it needs a persuasive argument to get a Falcon. (I cannot get my Territory back through work because of its greenhouse gas ratings, period.)

The frustrating thing is government is focussing on the wrong target. The cars with the highest score should be those that run on gas which is our only viable long-term local energy source for cars. Any fleet running petrol or diesel cars will be looking silly in a few years when oil will be unaffordable.

[mcnews]

Motorcycle market starting to feel the pinch now also....
http://www.mcnews.com.au/NewsArchive..._Editorial.htm

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by vztrt

Its the Falcons poor image that is due to the lack of sales and not their advertising.

Isn't it the marketeers job to change the image of a vehicle and brand through image building advertising?

They are the ones that can do things to change perceptions of the way people see a certain vehicle. Thats what they tried to do with the finger ads for FG, and they couldn't have possibly failed more epically. People saw it as a total joke.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Isn't it the marketeers job to change the image of a vehicle and brand through image building advertising?

BA could have changed the brand image of the Falcon, unfortunately when people jump in a car where the auto clunks, the diff blows up, slow window winding effort, panel alignment issues, shuddering brakes. First time buyers of the car (as it was a wow car when i came out) would pretty much see that 'Aussie cars are rubbish' and go buy a Toyota or Mazda.

The FG could have had the greatest add ever, people's bad experiences wont make them buy the car again.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by vztrt

BA could have changed the brand image of the Falcon, unfortunately when people jump in a car where the auto clunks, the diff blows up, slow window winding effort, panel alignment issues, shuddering brakes. First time buyers of the car (as it was a wow car when i came out) would pretty much see that 'Aussie cars are rubbish' and go buy a Toyota or Mazda.

The FG could have had the greatest add ever, people's bad experiences wont make them buy the car again.

i've been in a few ba's including the one i owned and am yet to come accross any of those issues or any of the ones frequently mentioned on this forum.

[RAREV8]

I have owned 3 now over the last 4 years and am about to take delivery of my 4th....sadly, the present BF MKII Futura suffers from the shuddering brakes (result of poor heat dissipation hence warped rotors), badly clunking 4 speed and now pinging too....must check those knock sensors!

I have driven countless rental Fairlanes and XR's over the past 3 years and the brakes and clunky autos seem to be factory fitted sadly......rentals probably don't get looked after as well though.

Having said this, all my modern falcons have had the brake issues but the old BF XR6 was a formiddable machine and light years ahead of the povvo pack one I have at the moment.
LSD, better suspension and 6 speed auto, FPV style tiller and idesign interior totally transformed the car into something really fun to drive.

New arrival is an FG G6 with the 5 speed.....will be interesting to see if it is as nice as the old XR was......

[flappist]

Originally Posted by prydey

i've been in a few ba's including the one i owned and am yet to come accross any of those issues or any of the ones frequently mentioned on this forum.

Well I have owned 4 BAs and also driven many more and these traits are not uncommon at all. Other than the window problem I have personally replaced 2 diffs, been cluncked half to death by drive line lash (although 3 of mine were manual), have shuddery brakes in my current BA2 XT (the others were FPVs 2 with brembos) and all 4 of them have had various paint and panel fitment problems. I also had a lot of electrical problems with my last F6 that Ford/FPV could not solve.

I do a lot of work with telstra countrywide and back in 2003-2004 the telstra carpark was 75% BA XR6. There was lots of whinging about the same problems at theat time by many of the owners.

I did not buy any BFs because the timing was wrong although I understand that they were a significant improvement over their predecessor. My experience with BAs was a contributing factor to me not buying a FG when they first came out and deciding to wait for the FG2 (or whatever).

I also work a lot with motor vehicle dealers and see first hand what happens and have come to realise that buying a Falcon or Commodore is something you do while thinking with your heart not your head......

[prydey]

Originally Posted by flappist

Well I have owned 4 BAs and also driven many more and these traits are not uncommon at all. Other than the window problem I have personally replaced 2 diffs, been cluncked half to death by drive line lash (although 3 of mine were manual), have shuddery brakes in my current BA2 XT .

none of the issues are unique to ba's. my eb manual has driveline lash. i've owned many cars that have needed the brakes machining etc etc.

i can't tell you if my bf2 is any improvement as like i said, i never had any issues with my ba.

[Windsor220]

Brake shudder is just a common thing with all late model cars. Commodores have been plagued bad with it for around 20 years.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by prydey

i can't tell you if my bf2 is any improvement as like i said, i never had any issues with my ba.

BF2 - Panel alignment still rubbish (funny enough my BA was better)
- Driveline clunk is still there with the 4 sp (never experienced it with the 6sp)
- Shuddering brakes, diff should be fixed
- Window winding effort was still around during the BF2, FG should be fixed.

Just because you didn't pick up issues with your car, many other people did. The early BA's had a large amount of issues and they also had a huge amount of sales (Ford were building cars 6 days a week at one stage) I've seen the data at Ford, also when the survey data comes out many people are dissatisfied with the Falcon and you know they will look to another make.

People will make excuses on here defending the Ford product but unfortunately the public perception of the Ford brand is not good. This will not be solved with a ****y commercial.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by vztrt

BF2 - Panel alignment still rubbish (funny enough my BA was better)

my bf2 is fine. no clunk in the 4sp either.

some of the problems extend from some peoples expectations. these are cheap mass produced cars. if you want the quality of a euro you should expect to pay for it.

if i bought a merc or bmw i'd have some of the gripes i see on this forum if i had the issues mentioned but its a falcon and i'm more than happy with all the ones i've owned with each being an improvement on the last.

[Gobes32]

Originally Posted by vztrt

BF2 - Panel alignment still rubbish (funny enough my BA was better)
- Driveline clunk is still there with the 4 sp (never experienced it with the 6sp)
- Shuddering brakes, diff should be fixed
- Window winding effort was still around during the BF2, FG should be fixed.

Just because you didn't pick up issues with your car, many other people did. The early BA's had a large amount of issues and they also had a huge amount of sales (Ford were building cars 6 days a week at one stage) I've seen the data at Ford, also when the survey data comes out many people are dissatisfied with the Falcon and you know they will look to another make.

People will make excuses on here defending the Ford product but unfortunately the public perception of the Ford brand is not good. This will not be solved with a ****y commercial.

Is it possible for Ford to ever perfectly engineer a locally made car with the budget they have. Because Focus will not save Ford Oz if the people who buy them are not happy with them.

I understand that this being a ford forum we are harder on our cars faults than a non enthusiast. However, when you spend over 40K on a new car, you want it to be perfect. People seem to be un happy about the diffs, brakes and 4spd autos in the Falcon. Ford do not make any of these products. Now if Ford were to look o'seas for better quality components, the union uproar would be huge........So what should Ford do? Scrap the aussie suppliers who are not up to world standard? Or do they keep sourcing locally made garbage and have more people turned off the local brand because Ford make rubbish cars..........?

[XR Martin]

Funny thing is the Aurion has pretty poor panel alignment (especially around the boot area), and also driveline clunks.
My mate's M3 manual also suffers from driveline clunks.
From what I understand it hard to make a medium/large RWD manual car that doesnt have driveline backlash, apparently even stuff like Ferrari isnt all that great

[EgoFG]

Originally Posted by vztrt

Just because you didn't pick up issues with your car, ....

true words ....

And also the converse applies

Just because Mr x reported Mr Y as having the problem ....


Unless someone has some cold hard facts gathered without subjective swing this kind of debate will continue ...

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Gobes32

Is it possible for Ford to ever perfectly engineer a locally made car with the budget they have. Because Focus will not save Ford Oz if the people who buy them are not happy with them.

I understand that this being a ford forum we are harder on our cars faults than a non enthusiast. However, when you spend over 40K on a new car, you want it to be perfect. People seem to be un happy about the diffs, brakes and 4spd autos in the Falcon. Ford do not make any of these products. Now if Ford were to look o'seas for better quality components, the union uproar would be huge........So what should Ford do? Scrap the aussie suppliers who are not up to world standard? Or do they keep sourcing locally made garbage and have more people turned off the local brand because Ford make rubbish cars..........?

But thats exactly what they have done by sourcing the foreign made 5 and 6 speed autos, and the Mexican made 6 speed manual that replaced the aussie made 5 speed T5. Come next year its more than likely the 4 speed will be no more, and it will be nothing but the foreign made 5 and 6 speed.

Its about time Ford sourced some reliable diffs from OS, the Dana diffs are absolute garbage and should not have continued with FG. Holden did the smart thing and got ZF to make their diffs, Ford should have followed suit.

[Gobes32]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

But thats exactly what they have done by sourcing the foreign made 5 and 6 speed autos, and the Mexican made 6 speed manual that replaced the aussie made 5 speed T5. Come next year its more than likely the 4 speed will be no more, and it will be nothing but the foreign made 5 and 6 speed.

Its about time Ford sourced some reliable diffs from OS, the Dana diffs are absolute garbage and should not have continued with FG. Holden did the smart thing and got ZF to make their diffs, Ford should have followed suit.

But then the media crucify us for not sourcing locally. Ford can't win.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Gobes32

But then the media crucify us for not sourcing locally. Ford can't win.

Thats the way the world works these days. Its either sink or swim for the local suppliers. If they can't come up with a quality product at the right price they will lose business.

God knows why Ford stuck with Dana for the diffs when they are nothing but unreliable, noisey pieces of junk. The number of times i've heard of someone say they are having their diff replaced under warranty is truely staggering. It must be Fords number 1 warranty claim.

[DanielXR8]

Originally Posted by prydey

i've been in a few ba's including the one i owned and am yet to come accross any of those issues or any of the ones frequently mentioned on this forum.

Which somehow discounts automatically all who have.

You have my permission to view my BA warranty claims on two BA's with Ford. When you are done, you can swing around and have a look at the Territory in my driveway that died yesterday.

Another tip is to go to a large group of people at a BBQ and ask "Say has anyone had a problem under warranty with a Ford?".

Take a large notepad.

For a follow up question try "What do you folks think of Ford dealers and servicing?".

For the followup question you will need two notepads.

Really prydey you have been lucky.

Dan

[prydey]

Originally Posted by DanielXR8

Which somehow discounts automatically all who have.

You have my permission to view my BA warranty claims on two BA's with Ford. When you are done, you can swing around and have a look at the Territory in my driveway that died yesterday.

Another tip is to go to a large group of people at a BBQ and ask "Say has anyone had a problem under warranty with a Ford?".

Take a large notepad.

For a follow up question try "What do you folks think of Ford dealers and servicing?".

For the followup question you will need two notepads.

Really prydey you have been lucky.

Dan

no i think it goes both ways. all those with problems assume all people have these problems.

ford are also not the only car company to have warranty issues. if you think these problems are unique to ford then you are a bit deluded.

i would argue that forums such as these represent a rather small % of the community. given that ford produced between 2-3000 falcons every month, it stands to reason that there are plenty out there that have no problems.

[GT69]

I've only every had a cd player replace under warrenty in my BA.

Yes Ford service is crap, thats what happens when its a ratio of 1 mechanic to 5 apprentices.

I choose to use an independant mechanic for all log book servicing as i've notice my car/s run worse after Ford have done things to them.

That wont stop me buying Fords. If it stops you buying fords then good for you i suppose. Holden have the exact same ratio.

The thing i think thats killing ford sales is the 'All Australia built/owned Holden' spin that has been around forever. Even in these bad times i believe people will still buy Holden to 'save an Aussie icon' And its crap. Every smart person (or atleast the people with working eyes) knows full well Holden is actually GMH.

I've been in both VE and FG (i own an FG XR6T ute) my neighbour has a SV6, The Ford is definately a better vehicle, hands down. My neighbour is actually selling his SV6 to buy a BF MKII XR6T ute. Thats one converted....

[Nikked]

Originally Posted by GT69

The thing i think thats killing ford sales is the 'All Australia built/owned Holden' spin that has been around forever. Even in these bad times i believe people will still buy Holden to 'save an Aussie icon' And its crap. Every smart person (or atleast the people with working eyes) knows full well Holden is actually GMH.

I know of poeple who think that things like astras and whatnot are aussie. An i know of people who don't even realise that the territory is built in australia.

Funnly enough, at the moment australias only true home made engine is the I6...no one knows that either

[duaned]

Originally Posted by vztrt

BA could have changed the brand image of the Falcon, unfortunately when people jump in a car where the auto clunks, the diff blows up, slow window winding effort, panel alignment issues, shuddering brakes. First time buyers of the car (as it was a wow car when i came out) would pretty much see that 'Aussie cars are rubbish' and go buy a Toyota or Mazda.

The FG could have had the greatest add ever, people's bad experiences wont make them buy the car again.

Mate couldn't agree with this one anymore. I regularly state on these forums regarding the poor panel alignment of the b-series cars, and get flamed for it! The main gripe of the issue is not so much the poor panel alignment ( and build quality), it's the variations of this between cars. For example, my BFmk1 was reasonably well built in regards to the panel alignment. However my BF mk2 is disgusting in this area, more so than anything I have epersonally experienced before, and this car was brand new. Looking at other aussie fords in the lot, this was not an isolated case. Sadly,my next car will be an import.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by Gobes32

Is it possible for Ford to ever perfectly engineer a locally made car with the budget they have. Because Focus will not save Ford Oz if the people who buy them are not happy with them.

No your correct with their budget they do a great job, unfortunately Ford US don't see that. If they could spread the cost of R&D and even an export program then more money could be spent on improving the product.

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Its about time Ford sourced some reliable diffs from OS, the Dana diffs are absolute garbage and should not have continued with FG. Holden did the smart thing and got ZF to make their diffs, Ford should have followed suit.

Problem is Ford says its bad diffs by Dana and Dana says its Fords problem and not their fault. They cant work together.

Originally Posted by prydey

ford are also not the only car company to have warranty issues. if you think these problems are unique to ford then you are a bit deluded.

No one thinks Ford is the only company that has warranty problems.
But people have this idea if they buy a Ford that they will have a lot of issue with the car. You can argue all you want, but public perception seems to be this and this is what Ford need to change.

BTW I'm not having a go at Ford, I've had two B-series (also have driven 12 others) and mine have been good reliable cars. The current SR is a good vehicle besides outside panel alignment (which I can live with) and the auto clunk (annoying but I've learned to drive around it), otherwise its a great car.