Cop loses job for giving small fines

[Yellow Fire]

Originally Posted by MO

Yellowfire,your young,you will learn eventually about the ways of the world.

Haha. Maybe not as young as you think. I'm an optimist I guess. A minority these days who champions hope for change rather than doom & gloom.

Anyway I'm out. Thanks for the thread it was fun

[Charliewool]

Originally Posted by Yellow Fire

I've said my bit about the topic at hand so I won't drag this far off topic.

Surely you find it incredibly depressing to admit that the system is so broken that it cannot be changed? To admit that a corrupt government system cannot be removed by people standing up for themselves? To admit that the general population is so stupid that they vote against their best interests?

I'm no hippy. I'm a white colour cog in the capitalist machine who spends his disposable income on the things I am told will make me happy just like everyone else here.

If you're right (which you may well be) it's a pretty bleak outlook for the future of this countrty.

Ok Yellow fire... So you organising our uprising rally?...
While we're at it... can we rally against ETS and our new electricity meters?
You're a sheep like the rest of us mate... beating your chest behind a keyboard.

[Iggypoppin']

Stand corrected sir, you provided us with the entertainment.

However, while it seems you joined up to this forum 5 years ago, so you can't be too young, you have a lot to learn about life. And the Internet, where sarcasm, irateness and other emotions can't be deciphered through text; aah the beauty of the keyboard hero.

[prydey]

getting back to the topic somewhat, they had this on the '7pm project' and interviewed the same guy mentioned earlier (greg davies). an interesting point was made by one of the panel, if i get the sack i can just go down the road to the next printing co. (or whatever job you have) and get another job. once sacked as a cop, thats it, you can't just go down the road to the next cop shop and get another job. pretty harsh punishment when you look at it like that i feel.

it is under appeal so hopefully he gets his job back.

[RG]

The Officer in question speaks out

HERALD SUN LINK

Originally Posted by Herald Sun

A POLICE officer sacked after waging a war against speeding fines has denied that his actions allowed dangerous drivers to stay on the road. Sgt Mark Ashton from the Avondale Heights police station is believed to have booked about 500 people over two years around Avondale Heights, in Melbourne's west.

He reduced the penalty for drivers through means such as increasing a zone's speed limit on a ticket.

If a motorist was caught driving 80km/h in a 60km/h speed zone, the sergeant allegedly falsely increased the speed limit to 70km/h so the driver would be fined less and receive one instead of three demerit points off his licence.

Mr Ashton said his actions had not allowed dangerous drivers to stay on the road.

"It's complete nonsense," he told the Herald Sun.

"I've taken their licence when appropriate. I'm not going to allow maniacs to be on the road.

"It's always been an issue of safety and I've taken more licences off people than your average police officer."

But Victoria's top traffic cop says he had no choice but to sack a police officer who allegedly falsified speeding fines.Deputy Commissioner Ken Lay said the allegations were not trifling.

He said one driver had kept his licence after being caught rocketing along at 123km/h in a 60km/h zone.

At 63km/h over the limit, that driver should have automatically lost the right to drive and had his car confiscated.

Mr Lay said 40 others detected at speeds which should have cost them their licences were allowed to keep driving in the past year.

He said he had no choice but to sack Sgt Ashton, who had misrepresented facts in documents.

Investigators do not believe Sgt Ashton received any inducements for his actions.

Mr Lay said Sgt Ashton had offered a “confusing” explanation for his conduct, arguing that he thought the posted speed limits in certain areas were too high and he was being ”humane”.

He said he understood some members lowered recorded speeds but this process needed to be transparent.

“They (the public) don’t expect them to falsify documents,” Mr Lay said.

Sgt Ashton’s actions diminished the efforts of his colleagues to keep the roads safer, Mr Lay said.

“This behaviour undermines their efforts,” he said.

Mr Lay said he did not believe Sgt Ashton’s actions were common among his force.

Sgt Ashton is appealing against his sacking at the police appeals board with the support of the Police Association.

He had been suspended for 15 months before being sacked this week, said Police Association secretary Sen-Sgt Greg Davies.

He said the decision to sack Sgt Ashton was very harsh and he should have been punished instead since the practice of showing such discretion was common and widespread.

"It could have been dealt with in a different way and much more expeditiously,'' he said.

"They have lost an experienced sergeant.

"He should have been back at work, the force could have rapped him over the knuckles and told him to do his job properly.''

Sgt Davies said motorists were still being booked and the government was still getting income from speeding fines.

He also said only two or three of the approximately 500 people Sgt Ashton had booked during the period had re-offended.

There is no suggestion of any corrupt activity or that the officer obtained any financial advantage, while he had a "solid'' and long history as a career police officer, Sen-Sgt Davies said.

[platinumXR]

Originally Posted by Wally

He got sacked because he knowingly made a false declaration on a potential court evidenciary document (the infringement ticket)

That'd be my guess, it would be an internal integrity issue sucha as supplying false information. From what i've read the whole thing seems dodgy.

[platinumXR]

Originally Posted by Yellow Fire

The clowns who make these laws should feel the anger of the people rather than being shielded from it by police trying to do the right thing by motorists.

Start a petition, I'll sign it.

[ltd_on20s]

Originally Posted by platinumXR

Start a petition, I'll sign it.

civil disobediance will get us further.

[platinumXR]

Originally Posted by ltd_on20s

civil disobediance will get us further.

Yeah, that's working gangbusters at the moment...

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by ltd_on20s

thats cause we are sheep in this country. we wave our fist in the air and yell" you b**tards" and do nothing.


i was in Lebanon(unsurprising being of lebanese descent), when the government raised the basic cost of petrol by about.......14 cents......14 CENTS... only a few months after they had raised it previously.


about 300,000 picketed parliment house for a week till it got dropped......


can you imagine 300,000 people standing in front of every states parliment for a week?

Yeah my wifes family who lives in Czechoslovakia were telling me that the government had put in a speed camera on a local road. I think it was set to go off at 150kmh or higher. People were so mad that the local MP for the area had his front windows smashed in his office and the speed camera was vandalised every day until it was taken down.

Im not condoning vandalism or anything, but it shows that Australians will just cop anything the government says or tells us. We are a very controlled country, anything the government introduces is introduced with a slick marketing campaign - like those every k over is a killer speeding ads. They are so effective that people feel happy they get fined and are overcome with joy when they see others get done. Give me a break, a painted sign on the side of the road with some arbitary number is somehow a magical limit for safety...?

I have seen a gradual slide in Australian governments and politics, they have become only about the spin, about control and about taking away our liberties and independence while we sit there similing, asking for more.

[ltd_on20s]

Originally Posted by platinumXR

Yeah, that's working gangbusters at the moment...

lol did'nt mean violent disobediance.

i would promise my job, and my citizenship, that if 200,000 motorists staged a sit in at every states parliment at the same time and refused to move until they agreed to review all current road rules/fines/speeds etc it would happen very quicky.

at the moment drivers are being treated as nothing more the a piggy bank

a couple of hundred freaked out cab drivers waving their shirts around got their saftey measures put in a lot faster then anyone though possible.

and with regards to this cop, nothing but respect for him for doing the right, honourable, human thing.

[Trek]

Gotta love how the media tries to spin it into slagging all the offenders as 'dangerous'. Ignorance at its best

The police officer was delivering justice as he saw fit, even though it defies what the police force stand for. Good on him for trying to alleviate the punishments for all those who might not be 'dangerous' to begin with, despite the outcome for him.

[Mr Hardware]

Yeah i think if he lowered the detected speed rather than altered the speed zone to one that doesn't exist then he probably would have been right.

[platinumXR]

Originally Posted by ltd_on20s

lol did'nt mean violent disobediance.

i would promise my job, and my citizenship, that if 200,000 motorists staged a sit in at every states parliment at the same time and refused to move until they agreed to review all current road rules/fines/speeds etc it would happen very quicky.

at the moment drivers are being treated as nothing more the a piggy bank

a couple of hundred freaked out cab drivers waving their shirts around got their saftey measures put in a lot faster then anyone though possible.

and with regards to this cop, nothing but respect for him for doing the right, honourable, human thing.

...well...start organizing something then...if people [do] feel strongly enough they will join you...or...maybe they will just complain about it on their chosen forum instead...bit easier that way...not too far away from the tv or the fridge...


PS: let me know when it happens in Sydney and I'll turn up.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by ltd_on20s

civil disobediance will get us further.

Go for it.. let us know how you go....... When you get out.

[ltd_on20s]

Originally Posted by platinumXR

...well...start organizing something then...if people [do] feel strongly enough they will join you...or...maybe they will just complain about it on their chosen forum instead...bit easier that way...not too far away from the tv or the fridge...


PS: let me know when it happens in Sydney and I'll turn up.

too many people are a slave to the almighty $$$ and really don't want to rock the boat.

they don't understand that for a little financial pain of not earning any cash now as a collective for 2/3 weeks is enormously beneficial to each individual later.

if people truely wanted to take a government on, it would have happened by now.

there was a rally in adelaide not that long ago about getting a drag strip up and running in adelaide as we have not had one for 10 years. the state gov did not even bat an eyelid.

why? because a couple of hundred rocked up, for like two hours.

now if all the car clubs got together and they ALL rocked up, and shut down the intersection for a week, what do you think would happen?

who cares about the media BECAUSE, in the end the public will turn and say give them what they want so i can go back to work and earn my cash.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by ltd_on20s

too many people are a slave to the almighty $$$ and really don't want to rock the boat.

they don't understand that for a little financial pain of not earning any cash now as a collective for 2/3 weeks is enormously beneficial to each individual later.

if people truely wanted to take a government on, it would have happened by now.

there was a rally in adelaide not that long ago about getting a drag strip up and running in adelaide as we have not had one for 10 years. the state gov did not even bat an eyelid.

why? because a couple of hundred rocked up, for like two hours.

now if all the car clubs got together and they ALL rocked up, and shut down the intersection for a week, what do you think would happen?

who cares about the media BECAUSE, in the end the public will turn and say give them what they want so i can go back to work and earn my cash.

The public response to the SA bid showed just how many people were passionate about it.... OK?
You can't force people to support your ideas if they don't have the same passion or interest for them that you do.
Your views on "anarchy" are the same... for the vast majority of people the laws are pretty easy to stay within, they might not seem "fair" but hey, most of us have more important things to focus on like just enjoying our cars, family and earning a living.
If you want to take the law makers on do it politically, use the political system to do it.
As for the fines.. well you have a choice about them too.. either don't do things that get you fined or run the gauntlet and take them on... Everyone has a choice.

[redauxr8]

Not to mention that out of the 500 tickets he issued, only 3-4 of them re-offended.

[ltd_on20s]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

The public response to the SA bid showed just how many people were passionate about it.... OK?
You can't force people to support your ideas if they don't have the same passion or interest for them that you do.
Your views on "anarchy" are the same... for the vast majority of people the laws are pretty easy to stay within, they might not seem "fair" but hey, most of us have more important things to focus on like just enjoying our cars, family and earning a living.
As for the fines.. well you have a choice about them too.. either don't do things that get you fined or run the gauntlet and take them on... Everyone has a choice.

"The public response to the SA bid showed just how many people were passionate about it.... OK?"

your right. all things considered it was'nt really organised that well in the first place. shoukld have been co-ordinated with as many members from as many car clubs as possible.

"Your views on "anarchy" are the same..."

who said anything about anarchy? there is a difference between loss of control and a controlled sit in.

surpirsing thing is there is always massive support from people behind a screen, until they have to actually go out and do something.

"they might not seem "fair" but hey,"

and thats the attitude i'm talking about, being blase' about changes that do affect you and your family and your chosen hobby, and affecting something you do almost every day, drive.

but your right about everyone having a choice.

[MO]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Go for it.. let us know how you go....... When you get out.

Civil disobedience does not mean you will go down for long time. Mostly it will get you a few hours in the watchhouse till your processed and then maybe a court appearence and fine later.
Civil disobedience does not mean violence it is a form of protest and as far as I'm aware we're still allowed to do that.
But as with most things you have to convince the sheep that they are being screwed before they might join in,so long as it doesn't mess with their normal grazing habits!

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by MO

Civil disobedience does not mean you will go down for long time. Mostly it will get you a few hours in the watchhouse till your processed and then maybe a court appearence and fine later.
Civil disobedience does not mean violence it is a form of protest and as far as I'm aware we're still allowed to do that.
But as with most things you have to convince the sheep that they are being screwed before they might join in,so long as it doesn't mess with their normal grazing habits!

There is also a difference between forcing your views onto others by way of whipping up a storm to support your own agenda too.... and making a worthwhile "objection" to something.
If you have to work hard to convince people they should not like something i think you're barking up the wrong tree and need to row your own boat alone...

I'm not suggesting for one second we should all roll over and cop it, but i think some people have a warped view on what other people should think is right and wrong... and more importantly worth kicking a stink about.

labeling someone a sheep for not objecting to or supporting your views is a bit rough too....

[MO]

@4vman,well as long as the point of view is a well reasoned and logical point there is no reason why one can't put it forward for discussion. And as you are well aware I would never force MY point of view on anyone I do however put it there to be accepted or rejected.
Its like workers going to the boss with an item for the workplace so long as they put to the boss in such manner that it should be listened to and not rejected out of hand.
As for sheep a quick and handy euphanism for those that have lassiez faire attitude and I did say....'might join in...' after being convinced.

[TUF_302]

Are they going to go back and check all the tickets he's issued and then go and fine everyone properly? lol!

Its always the nicer cops who get screwed, his heart was in the right place, he was breaking the law though so he has to cop the penlty

[MO]

And thats the whole point...cop the penalty.... but in this case is the penalty a fair one,i.e. does the punishment fit the crime. I for one don't believe it does I reckon its too harsh.
How 'bout instead,several options....demotion to lesser rank and a fine or just a demotion which in itself carries a monetary loss i.e. less pay.
I can't remember if its been posted here already but if a tradie gets the sack he can wander off to the next bldg site and get a job,a copper can't wander off to the next police station and get a job!

EDIT,forgot your first sentence they probably can and might,after all its lost revenue and 497 dangerous drivers still on the road.

[Wretched]

Originally Posted by 76txcoupe

Not nessecary or needed.
I think what's happened here is he has used discretion- in the wrong context. As a police officer, you are allowed to choose to issue a ticket for infringements; it has happened to me. However, if you "use discretion" to decide whether to issue a fine or not, and you do, then the right to use discretion any further ceases. You must issue a ticket that matches the numbers on the radar gun and the corresponding speed limit. Whether he then issues additional infractions against your vehicle is again, up to discretion. Once he makes that decision however, he must follow the rules.

Bingo!

He had good intentions but went around it the wrong way.
Whether anyone likes it or not he broke the law, falsified a legal document (possible court evidence) and should be punished.

[Iggypoppin']

We all make mistakes in life. Hopefully this police officer is re-instated and given a lesser penalty, and he can continue with his life.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by MO

I can't remember if its been posted here already but if a tradie gets the sack he can wander off to the next bldg site and get a job,a copper can't wander off to the next police station and get a job!

post #64 :

[platinumXR]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

There is also a difference between forcing your views onto others by way of whipping up a storm to support your own agenda too.... and making a worthwhile "objection" to something.
If you have to work hard to convince people they should not like something i think you're barking up the wrong tree and need to row your own boat alone...

I'm not suggesting for one second we should all roll over and cop it, but i think some people have a warped view on what other people should think is right and wrong... and more importantly worth kicking a stink about.

labeling someone a sheep for not objecting to or supporting your views is a bit rough too....

Too true.

Remember, we all have to live in the same society and, unfortunately some people don't play well with others - they are selfish and ignorant and more often than not; the application of some of these laws can assist in helping them realise they SHOULD play well with others...

Would, or more importantly; SHOULD a person really begrudge someone attempting to maintain civil order? And yes...sometimes at the cost of a little discomfort or inconvenience to a few?

[XDV800]

Mr Lay said he did not believe Sgt Ashton’s actions were common among his force.

This is victoria's supposed 'top cop'?

To me this all could be the culmination of a lot more than just Sgt Ashton bending the law the wrong way.
If he was allowing motorists that exceeded the limit by for eg; 63 km/h as suggested by the media report, then that is unacceptable. Thats not discretion, but plain hypocrisy on his part.

I'm disappointed that this has been fed through the media grinder, because being able to legitimately have discourse with an officer over a reason to lessen or dismiss the necessity of an infringement has been an appreciated loophole often for myself. ;)
I fear this loophole will now be sewn shut.

P.S. Gee there are some windbags on these forums who really get there knickers in a knot when a perfectly argued alternate point of view is made by another member. Phenomenal!

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by platinumXR

Too true.

Remember, we all have to live in the same society and, unfortunately some people don't play well with others - they are selfish and ignorant and more often than not; the application of some of these laws can assist in helping them realise they SHOULD play well with others...

Would, or more importantly; SHOULD a person really begrudge someone attempting to maintain civil order? And yes...sometimes at the cost of a little discomfort or inconvenience to a few?

Yeah, yeah, if I question the law or government or dont follow it to the letter then I am selfish and ignorant. Lets all play together nicely and follow our perfect government who knows whats best. How dare we scrutinise and critique laws which affect our and our childrens' lives - what a pathetic attitude to have.

I know of some people in Germany who didnt follow the government in the 40s, were they selfish or ignorant..?

People who stand up for their rights and what they believe in truly undertand and appreciate how fortunate they are to live in democracy, they are not ignorant or selfish troublemakers.