Fatal driver was .19

[rodderz]

Hopefully some attitudes have changed with this accident. This week I have been working in South Morang and drive past the accident scene daily to get to and from there. Grog bottles litter the area every morning, then in the arvo they are back there drinking, hopefully this culture isn't done when some driving is on the cards.

There were some great comments and ideas put foreward by some europeans in the comments section of the herald sun today, whereby they had to pay $1000's for their license in Germany, Sweden, Denmark etc to get their drivers license. This included courses, driving tests, advanced skills tests etc and then they come over here and get the test done in 5 mins. It's too easy to pass out to anyone without proper education, training and background checks.

[Charliewool]

Originally Posted by blizz

all we can really do is make it when they go for their p's they have to visit crash victims and see very "graphic" images and videos of crash seens and maybe just maybe that will knock some sense into them

I remember 40 odd years ago the traffic cops coming to our school and showing us gruesome California Highway Patrol films of picking up body parts etc from road crashes... It did buggerall, bar kids giggling over those that fainted!... At that age, you're removed from it.. It's NOT YOU, It can't HAPPEN to YOU.. it's only a gory film!
I'm with 4Vman here.. It's a total breakdown in the family unit and family discipline!... I was a bit of a wild kid growing up... But pinch my parents car???... The old man would have crucified me!!

[mik]

this whole thing strikes a nerve with me because i can see where some of these kids come from .......some kids grow up comeing from disadvantaged family`s for what ever reason or broken family`s or something screwed up in their live`s , they end up on a path that can lead to disaster not because the kid`s (young adults were morons) but because they were on this path growing up due to circumstances (beyond their control in many cases)that caused them on this path , its a social problem imo, look at the violence on our streets, i reckon kids start on this slippery slope from about 11 years old, rules and regulations are not the answer, somehow helping parents to be better at their job, and more discipline in schools would be a good start.

[vanman_75]

Originally Posted by charliewool

I remember 40 odd years ago the traffic cops coming to our school and showing us gruesome California Highway Patrol films of picking up body parts etc from road crashes... It did buggerall, bar kids giggling over those that fainted!... At that age, you're removed from it.. It's NOT YOU, It can't HAPPEN to YOU.. it's only a gory film!
I'm with 4Vman here.. It's a total breakdown in the family unit and family discipline!... I was a bit of a wild kid growing up... But pinch my parents car???... The old man would have crucified me!!

and we would all be right in saying that the parent has lost total control of children for all the reasons we all know, but we will all rant about what should happen and not do it ... never seen so much disrespect in my life as youth today and im only 35 . a kick up the ... and the taking of privileges was all it took for me . but society has changed we gave power to the children a voice ....it changes at home .,,, you want to help go do it ,government will only take away more and more from us in some dream of fixing the problem , and fail !!
at that age you dont care at least give them some training first ...i was lucky a lot of my friends weren't

[uranium_death]

Some people at 18 are too mentally immature to appreciate the responsibility that comes with driving. It's just a real-life extension of their Playstation or other console...

However, it is impossible to control because there are others at the same age who are sensible and realise that driving is statistically a dangerous thing, and acting a tool will do nothing but place oneself in greater danger.

Heavier fines are required, as well as harder license restrictions. If you are caught speeding unreasonably, then you must get a car with a heavily restricted power:weight ratio etc.

Just some ideas...but Australia is too soft. Judges take the light stance by offering the old, 'there's a chance you can be rehabilitated' junk, and they go out and reoffend.

I am becoming quite sick of it. It is an unfair judgement on teenagers/young drivers that they're 'too young' etc. when it's probably only a miniscule number acting like idiots. All we hear about are the bad-news stories and media beat-ups.

Also, regarding discipline AT HOME, I could not agree more.
I studied Primary Teaching for 4.5 years and with the Victorian Essential Learning Standards being introduced a couple of years ago, things like 'values' and such are now part of the curriculum and must be documented as part of a child's report. Teachers now have larger classes, less time to teach things than ever and more things to teach than ever. Now, we're all happy to dump it all on them and expect kids to become super in every way.

I'm sorry. If parents want their kids to learn values, respect and manners then it has to start at home, and the parents have to set the prime example.

[sarrge2001]

Originally Posted by GTGTP

The big message I can give you, is just how important PARENTING is! We live in a very fast, sad, shallow, selfish ........ world (I could go in forever) but children need example, discipline and guidance - no matter how many times they argue with you, that you are UNCOOL, UNFAIR and OUT OF TOUCH. As parents, if we can't display decent mature behaviour then how do our children learn? Lead by example - be their mentors!

Stand your ground - your kids MIGHT (don't bank on that one) one day thank you for it. At least you can be reassured that you did your best.

Gaela

Brilliant post and an attitude so often overlooked these days!!

[stang65]

I beleive that the alcohol companies and society is at fault here, as mentioned earlier kids as young as 13/14 can be found drinking. Then you have schoolies year 11 /12 which encourages it further and then they go to Uni where beer is out and they get hooked onto the spirits. It is generally accepted to get ****ed is cool. I know people that go out every friday to get tanked and then go on about not being able to meet women and I say to them are you going out to meet a girl or you going out to get ****ed you can`t have both . Unfortunately it`s the culture there needs to be more education in the schools and the uni`s about alcohol and harsher penalties.

[zdcol71]

Originally Posted by auslandau

I am not talking about driving courses as such. I am not that keen on defensive driving courses as this is done once someone has a license in their hand already and it can be a bit of teaching hoons to hoon better ....... I would rather pay this with my taxes than French lessons during high school!

People can only take responsibility for their own education if their is suitable education available. It isn't unfortunately. Start early and let it become part of peoples life ... not just so suddenly.

auslandau... I'm taking my kids to defensive driving courses now, and they don't have their licences yet....

[silvergsvan]

How about this:


How many people posting here can put their hand on their heart and say they haven't driven having drunk too much and then wondered exactly how they managed to get home in the morning? I can remember some really stupid things I did in my teens and 20s, I'm only here by the grace of God.

Parents? Yes they should show an example (and my parents set good ones. I can remember my father left a job and got caught down the pub afterwards. He was blotto when he got home (the drunkest I had ever seen him) and it was a matter of shame for he and mum that he put himself in that position). That night was often discussed as an example of what not to do in the huse I grew up in.

Education? Better education about anything creates respect most times. Some lady sees a nice looking GT in a car park and lets her little kid put is ice cream and greasy hands all over while they have a look. She has no respect because she has no knowledge. Nine out of ten times you have a quiet word to her, tell her how special the car is, how hard you work to keep it in the condition it is and she will develop some respect.

Drinking at parties? The others at that party should have exercised some control of the driver. At 0.19 he would have been visibly impaired.

Overloading a car? My assumption is that they must have been drinking as well.

I wish something as simple as the discusson we have here could find a solution and/or bring some peace to those who have suffered loss here.

It can't, it won't but I will be the first to acknowledge that on several occasions 20 years ago that could well have been me. I was just lucky and I would never put myself in that position now.

While cars and alcohol are capable of being combined, from time-to-time these tragedies will occur.

[Big Mike]

Completely agree with GTGTP's post - it is entirely on the parents and the decision making abilities instilled in their children.

You could raise the drinking age, the driving age, lower the speed limits and make cars less powerful.

However...

The "drinking age" if you like for a P plater is 21 or whatever it is, you cannot drink on your P's. But this bloke did. The first sniff of alcohol out of an open bottle when you're on your P's means YOU AREN'T DRIVING TONIGHT end of story.
You're also not allowed to carry a car load of passengers, especially an overloaded one, on your P's.
The speed limit is entirely irrelevant as is the power of the car - as the kid made the decision to drive that fast. While drunk, and I'll bet not one of the occupants had a seatbelt on - not really a problem, so long as they don't crash.
Speculation says they all jumped in the car after being harrassed by gatecrashers, this is a situation I've been in and we had to take the risk of getting out of there, which meant driving extremely carefully knowingly breaking the law - where leaving was less dangerous than staying. Speculation also suggests they were pursued, and there's a possibility they were punted off the road, on this straight stretch of road, by another car, the gate crashers, who were harrassing/assaulting them before. I have also been in this position where my skills and superior car managed to outrun the pursuing vehicle whilst on the phone to 000 and reaching insane speeds enroute to the police station - where this mob got out and attacked my car INSIDE the police grounds. My case was completely unprovoked believe it or not, so sometimes these horrible things do happen.

Which goes back again to the parents of those thugs responsible for gate crashing, assaulting people, pursuing those trying to evade the issues, and causing the situation in which this bunch of kids were killed if there's any truth to those rumours - whilst clearly those dead need to be responsible for their own actions, and their parents accountable for their mental state and decision making, there may be more to this particular story than bogan idiots writing themselves off, killing their friends and a perfectly innocent tree.

[LTDHO]

Anyone who said that they (P platers) should be restricted to 4 cylinder cars, is more stupid than the deceased P Plater!

My girlfriend has a 92 Integra, it launches quicker than my XR8, and it tops out at the same speed. Her car is stock all the way down to her hubcaps. I have a 5.0 with 3.45 gears, sports exhaust, CAI, etc.
So if we were race from a standing stop into a tree, she would win in her 1.6!!

Driver education is the only way.

[hotsup]

Even tho it has been found that the 19yr old driver was over the blood alcohol limit somehow the cause of the crash will be blamed purely on speeding. The cops always end up doing that.
Its much easier for cops to police speeding than it is to police drink driving

[left]

Originally Posted by mik

this whole thing strikes a nerve with me because i can see where some of these kids come from .......some kids grow up comeing from disadvantaged family`s for what ever reason or broken family`s or something screwed up in their live`s , they end up on a path that can lead to disaster not because the kid`s (young adults were morons) but because they were on this path growing up due to circumstances (beyond their control in many cases)that caused them on this path , its a social problem imo, look at the violence on our streets, i reckon kids start on this slippery slope from about 11 years old, rules and regulations are not the answer, somehow helping parents to be better at their job, and more discipline in schools would be a good start.

I can see where you're coming from but honestly? It's a cop out. Take me for instance: single Mum, Dad in prison, both heavy on the fags and drink, grew up in Housing Commission. I am what is referred to as Straight Edge (check wiki) and have never been in trouble with the law and am generally successful in life. I never ever want to go back to that lifestyle and drama. Boring old middle class suburbia is fine for me.

People have to take responsibility for their own actions instead of wanting everything handed to them on a silver platter and walking around with a sense of entitlement like the world owes them something. World owes you jack ****. So what if you had a crappy childhood, crappy parents and crappy education? Build a bridge and get over it! Two wrongs do not make a right.

I am just glad they did not kill any innocents. Like me, they were all probably tucked up in bed at 2am ;)

[XT2XR]

I was told by friends in Melb before it was announced he had been drinking that a memorial had been put on the tree. It was Jim Beam cans and smoke packets, real nice :(
Whats it say for the people at the party to let 6 people get into a 5 seater car and the driver would have clearly been smashed.
It needs to be drummed into all drivers not just the young, if you have a drink or two just dont drive home. Im 37 and have managed that since turning 18. I have never believed there is any excuse for driving after drinking.

[Bud Bud]

Umm.... I humbly apologise to UNR8D for asking to show more compassion towards the deceased driver. You clearly saw more than me to this moronic act and you were only just stating your intuitions to reflect just that. You can now :

I have zero tolerance for drunk drivers period.

Ok back on topic.

What have found out so far
-There were too many people to be adequately restrained
-Passenger were reported to be hanging out of windows while yelling in jest
-The driver failed to register the vehicle
-The driver had a recent speeding history
-The driver was due in court for not adhering to previous penalties handed down
-The driver was driving at excessive speed
-The driver ran a red light prior to the crash
-The driver was drinking on a P plate licence
-The driver was drunk (4 times over the legal limit)

Everybody here (including me) have made good and even thoughtful suggestions to help remedy this cause but I'm sorry, I just do not see what any other Government policy or policies could have been implemented that would have prevented this incredible carnage from happening. Let’s face it, even if they had a curfew in or some other radicle policy in place (and judging by the rack of selfish and ignorant acts performed already by this driver), then I fail to see how another law would have done its job either.

This individual who was legally allowed to vote just needed to accept his responsibility for his previous actions prior to the final conclusion. No Government or parents or any other individual could do it for him.

I think this has gone far enough with a thread closed already and this one now taking off and also I think that even the Government needs to put this one into the"too hard basket" as well. I would hate to see a lowering of more speed limits or a tripling of fines based on this particular act of sheer blind stupidity because it has now become quite clear, that even these types of measures still would not have stopped this from happening, at least not in this case.

[03wrx]

If alcohol was banned you would see less road death, less pedestrian accidents, less bashings on the steets, less domestic violence against women & children, less sexually committed crimes, less diseases such as liver disease, diabetes, cardiac disease, less homeless, and so on so on.

Its one of the biggest business's in western world, and these companies make their money by putting many people and families into misery.

If you see alcohol as a moral sin as I do, you wont touch it. I cant see anyone being better off not refraining from drinking the stuff.

[silvergsvan]

Originally Posted by 03wrx

If alcohol was banned you would see less road death, less pedestrian accidents, less bashings on the steets, less domestic violence against women & children, less sexually committed crimes, less diseases such as liver disease, diabetes, cardiac disease, less homeless, and so on so on.

Its one of the biggest business's in western world, and these companies make their money by putting many people and families into misery.

If you see alcohol as a moral sin as I do, you wont touch it. I cant see anyone being better off not refraining from drinking the stuff.

The drug dealers would love you for that.

[ch33z1l]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Maybe they need to raise the driving age to 21...... :

Only it disadvantages those in the country that have some distance to travel to work every day.

[SKITZD]

I'm really starting to wonder what could possibly be done to get the message through peoples heads. Seems as though no matter what has been tried or could be tried, it might just be a dead end.

Its a shame about those teenagers, but thats what you get for being stupid. Its the poor families that have to live with it now. My heart goes out to them.

[RedHotGT]

Originally Posted by 03wrx

If alcohol was banned you would see less road death, less pedestrian accidents, less bashings on the steets, less domestic violence against women & children, less sexually committed crimes, less diseases such as liver disease, diabetes, cardiac disease, less homeless, and so on so on.

Its one of the biggest business's in western world, and these companies make their money by putting many people and families into misery.

If you see alcohol as a moral sin as I do, you wont touch it. I cant see anyone being better off not refraining from drinking the stuff.

The biggest Hurdle to this suggestion 03WRX is actually the TAX...

Why do you think that the government will NEVER ever ban the sale of cigarettes??

They are proven to be cancer-sticks... and have absolutely ZERO benefits to your life or health... but every year they reap millions of dollars in TAX, as well as millions of dollars worth of health related spending to combat the negative health issues...

Same goes for alcohol...

And don't even get me started on the PETROL tax... *off topic*

Suppose you're right though...
Lets just ban alcohol, smoking, driving, fast food, industry manufacturing...
May as well ban TV and radio while we're at it...

Then we'll all live forever!!!
(and be bored and depressed out of our minds)

[FTGAutosalvage]

IMO a few changes to laws & ADR's could solve a lot of problems.

compulsary driver training b4 getting your p's
lift the drinking age to 21
speed limit ALL new cars like they have trucks. simple to do in the ADR's , all new cars speed limited to 110. (will i modify this, the answer is yes. but make the penalties for tampering harsh. loosing you car for a month would stop most young hoons.)

[left]

^^ I like all those suggestions.

I would add that there needs to be stricter regulations on who can teach young people to drive. There seems to be a LOT of driving instructors out there who have no idea what the heck they are doing and this in turn is passed on to young people and becomes habit. I remember being told "put your indicator on and count to 3 then change lanes"! I promptly told the instructer to get stuffed

Also increase police powers to impound cars not just for speeding but things like e.g. having stockies on the rear wheels. There's only ever one reason why a car is set up like that - for ther purpose of circle work etc - so IMO get them before they have a chance to put their plans in to action. I see so many cars driving around like this in northern suburbs Melbourne it is laughable.

I see no problem with speed limiting. Rarely do you "need" to go faster than 110kmh (perhaps to overtake on single lane highway in rural areas but even then it is something you could live without).

[ltd_on20s]

Originally Posted by loftie

The biggest Hurdle to this suggestion 03WRX is actually the TAX...

Why do you think that the government will NEVER ever ban the sale of cigarettes??

They are proven to be cancer-sticks... and have absolutely ZERO benefits to your life or health... but every year they reap millions of dollars in TAX, as well as millions of dollars worth of health related spending to combat the negative health issues...

Same goes for alcohol...

And don't even get me started on the PETROL tax... *off topic*

Suppose you're right though...
Lets just ban alcohol, smoking, driving, fast food, industry manufacturing...
May as well ban TV and radio while we're at it...

Then we'll all live forever!!!
(and be bored and depressed out of our minds)

just goes to prove that the goverments are more interested in your pocket then whether you live or die.

they don't care about you. to them your just another dollar sign. and until people wake up to that fact governments will just keep doing what they always do. theiveing you.

why do we allow the drinking age to be roughly around the age of when you first get your license/get into nightclubs/go out with mates?? your just asking for trouble....

life should be worth more then a few bucks in government coffers.

RESTRICT the sale of alcohol to certain times. (ie drivethrus until 9pm, things like that)

BAN advertisement of Alcohol (total. no more. alcohol is destructive. period. at the very least, restrict advertising to between 10pm and 5 am.)

Raise drinking age to 20

link speed limits and penalties to amount of driver training the person has.

maybe i should run for parliment...

[MAD]

Attitude and respect, or lack of, is the biggest problem at hand that I can see.
Starting with the parents, as many have said, but also landing squarely on the shoulders of the pollies that have allowed parents/teachers to lose a heap of their authority.
What good is a parent/teacher that is willing to dish out some hard discipline, if they are only going to be the one that ends up in trouble?
There is heaps more to it than just this, but these are definite trouble points.

I had a thought a while ago that traffic violations should be linked with your license so when you go to renew it, it will cost you a heap more if you have had a any fines during that period.
Maybe it could also be linked to the families licenses, so that each offence from a family member contributes to everyones points. I reckon any parent would arc up if their kid just cost them their license.
Or maybe linked to the rego so the cost to register will increase at the end of the year.Could even go one step further with this and have it linked to ANY rego under that family name/address. So you dont only cost yourself an extra $400, but you cost mum, dad and anyone else in the family the same amount. That might increase the likelihood of parents dishing out some real discipline.

[4Vman]

Where do people think the Tax collected goes??? it goes towards supporting infrastructure and welfare.... the more voters demand stuff the more they spend spoiling us therefore more they need to collect....

[Geez Louise]

I have just read on Ninemsn that they have arrested a 47yr old unlicenced drunk driver ( 6 times the legal limit) at the funeral of one of these young men.

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/...victim-funeral

The man was barely able to walk as he was escorted across the road to a police vehicle according to the report.

Unbelievable!

[ltd_on20s]

anyone got a link to how much people paid in rego and license fees last year?

[mik]

Originally Posted by left

I can see where you're coming from but honestly? It's a cop out. Take me for instance: single Mum, Dad in prison, both heavy on the fags and drink, grew up in Housing Commission. I am what is referred to as Straight Edge (check wiki) and have never been in trouble with the law and am generally successful in life. I never ever want to go back to that lifestyle and drama. Boring old middle class suburbia is fine for me.

People have to take responsibility for their own actions instead of wanting everything handed to them on a silver platter and walking around with a sense of entitlement like the world owes them something. World owes you jack ****. So what if you had a crappy childhood, crappy parents and crappy education? Build a bridge and get over it! Two wrongs do not make a right.

I am just glad they did not kill any innocents. Like me, they were all probably tucked up in bed at 2am ;)

i`m happy you turned out allright Left, and are successful in life, but thats a very simplistic view imo, i fear if everyone take`s such a simplistic view, the problems of young people are going to be with us for long time to come.

[BENT_8]

Its apparent from the posts in this thread that the onus is on us as parents to 'educate' our children, good to see the message getting through.

As i said in the other thread, lets stop making excuses for the behaviour and take ownership of the problem.

I've been saying this on here for years and most times it was met with criticism and the usual defensive driving, lifting the licence age, doo gooders wont let me raise my kids properly etc. etc. excuses for why we as parents arent to blame.
And before anyone says it, educating your kids doesnt mean smacking them, if you cant get your kids to understand right from wrong with words and example your not a parents ars......!

I am a firm believer that road safety SHOULD be part of school curriculum from yrs 6/7 onwards.
When i was in primary school we had a yearly excursion to a rider safety facility where we watched a film before riding push bikes around a track that simulated real world road conditions ie. traffic lights, rail crossings etc. etc.
Unfortunately it was closed down.

[ltd_on20s]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

I am a firm believer that road safety SHOULD be part of school curriculum from yrs 6/7 onwards.
When i was in primary school we had a yearly excursion to a rider safety facility where we watched a film before riding push bikes around a track that simulated real world road conditions ie. traffic lights, rail crossings etc. etc.
Unfortunately it was closed down.

being in adelaide i did that that rider saftey progamme when i was a kid too.

what a shame they closed it down.

that was the best thing when you were a kid.