What the hell can be done.....

[MO]

Originally Posted by Green X

Hay slick, you’re a lost cause, if you actually believe that minor speeding is the sole cause for accidents then just keep on believing what the government serves you up.

Every new law the government bring in is all about reducing and restricting and they have been at it for a wile now and it hasn’t done a hell of a lot has it,

The only thing they haven’t done is change the way new drivers are trained, I.E how to drive a car, how to drive to conditions, how to judge traffic and how To ********* overtake properly.

100hous of logged driving, what the hell is that going to do if it's all done putting around the city in a 4 banger, What happens when they get out on a country road and a roo jumps out in front of them when there doing 110km/h and they freeze up, What happens when they are coming around a corner and a tyre blows out at 90km/h.

Well said...

[Den.]

Same as here. We got graduated licensing "because Australia had it'. They actually said that when they shoved it down our throats!!!!! Then they said road fatalitys for 16 year olds in the first year went down. Well DUH!! No one caught on to the fact that the reason why was because they weren't allowed to DRIVE!! And of course at 17 they STILL can't drive!

Time to get rid of it and teach people how to drive instead of paralell park/pass a test. Teach car control and come up with a REAL driving test instead of the jokes they have now.

Require a driver to get sideways on wet pavement and straighten out before issuing a pass. After that, it's up to them.

Get rid of GPS, traction control, stability control (They're actually legislating it IN as standard equip. here now!!), radar guided parking, lanechange, turn signals and cruise control.

Ban cellphones, in car Email systems, etc and ENFORCE IT!!

Stop convincing people that driving takes no brains/attention span and make them DRIVE when they're behind the heel. Raise the highway speed limits at LEAST 20%.

[MO]

Originally Posted by Den.

Same as here. We got graduated licensing "because Australia had it'. They actually said that when they shoved it down our throats!!!!! Then they said road fatalitys for 16 year olds in the first year went down. Well DUH!! No one caught on to the fact that the reason why was because they weren't allowed to DRIVE!! And of course at 17 they STILL can't drive!

Time to get rid of it and teach people how to drive instead of paralell park/pass a test. Teach car control and come up with a REAL driving test instead of the jokes they have now.

Require a driver to get sideways on wet pavement and straighten out before issuing a pass. After that, it's up to them.

Get rid of GPS, traction control, stability control (They're actually legislating it IN as standard equip. here now!!), radar guided parking, lanechange, turn signals and cruise control.

Ban cellphones, in car Email systems, etc and ENFORCE IT!!

Stop convincing people that driving takes no brains/attention span and make them DRIVE when they're behind the heel. Raise the highway speed limits at LEAST 20%.

Agreed and I said so earlier.

[T_Terror]

Yeah but really, people are going to die on the roads no matter what.

It is terrible but why does every keep beating a dead horse? The numbers can certainly be minimized but will never be zero.

There will always be heroes, dropkicks and just plain bad drivers who's momentary foolishness or inattentiveness will result in a death.

I think it was agreed on this site a while ago, that the solution is a different licencing system, with advanced driver training required to drive high-performance cars and improved basic training.

Implementation will be too expensive so it will never happen unless licencing becomes outsourced to a private operator like motorbike licence (which is a great system IMO).

[Full Spectrum]

Originally Posted by Green X

Hay slick, you’re a lost cause, if you actually believe that minor speeding is the sole cause for accidents then just keep on believing what the government serves you up.

Every new law the government bring in is all about reducing and restricting and they have been at it for a wile now and it hasn’t done a hell of a lot has it,

The only thing they haven’t done is change the way new drivers are trained, I.E how to drive a car, how to drive to conditions, how to judge traffic and how To ********* overtake properly.

100hous of logged driving, what the hell is that going to do if it's all done putting around the city in a 4 banger, What happens when they get out on a country road and a roo jumps out in front of them when there doing 110km/h and they freeze up, What happens when they are coming around a corner and a tyre blows out at 90km/h.

Funny thing is i have no recollection of saying minor speeding was the sole cause of accidents.

I drove 2 years on my L-plates, 16-18 best 2 years. Trouble today is the instructors themselves are pretty shit drivers. Some are very good and teach you many things, Others just don't care it's the system of get it first time or don't pay next time that is wrong.

In my first 2 weeks of driving i got fined for speeding, Blown a tyre and was almost cut off into a pole. All 3 things taught me a great deal.
Blown tyre awareness and follow what i read in the book of keeping a firm grip of the wheels and don't apply brakes too hard and move to the side of the road when you can.
Cut off almost into a pole, Know your surroundings and never trust another car or driver on the road there unpredictable, I was able too use a little extra part of the road and avoid both car and pole.
And the fine was great, Too be pulled up and humiliated at 18. I went home and was very happy it happen because it taught me noone is invincible that's a wake up call bring you back too earth.
But not everyone can learn many people will not even bother no matter how much you teach them in the end it's up too them too accept the teachings.
I was very lucky that my mother allowed me too drive us everywhere we went for 2 years, So when i went for some testing my instructor said i was ready but we would do some driving around too keep all i will need very fresh, Went for my P's i was very nerves but passed first shot and all was good.

But you can still train them how too drive but it's up too them in the end if that training gets onto the street, Nothing beats a good 5-10 years behind the wheel, So unless we start drivers earlier they will never gain huge on road experience.

[BENT_8]

Hey guys sorry to but in but i thought this needed my 2c worth.

First of all i cant believe half of the crap that has been written in this thread, although i must admit after the first page and a half it was heading down the same ol path it usually does.

The cold hard facts are people, D.ick heads will kill themselves regardless of laws, fines, driver education, liscence suspension etc.

Yes, if you make getting your L's harder, you will better educate young drivers.
Yes, if you introduce advanced driver training, you will better educate young drivers.
Yes, if you apply harsher conditions to semi skilled drivers, you will better educate young drivers.
Yes, if you suspend a young drivers liscence for a stupid driving error, you will better educate young drivers.

The problem is, the type of drivers that you would be targeting are not the ones getting themselves killed on trees.
It would simply be making it harder for genuinely sensible people to hold a liscence.

Who honestly believes that a piece of plastic 3"x1.5" in size would make any difference to the outcome of this event.
The type of clown doing the speeds required to do that to a statesman, is as likely to care for liscence restrictions as the care he gave for the speed limit where it happened.

As for burnout pads and drag strips, CARS ARE TRANSPORT!
Yes we need cars to a certain extent to survive in todays world, but thinking that having a place for people to thrash their cars in a controlled environment may solve this problem is outrageous.
If people want to race, fair enough, but build a dedicated race car and race it.
Cops hang around these places for a reason and that would be that the hooning very rarely stays on the track.

We are wasting our time with the current generation of new drivers, this must be tackled at a young age.
We teach our kids Stranger danger, how to handle an emergency at home, how to carry scissors, how to feed the bleedin dog, yet we are asked to teach them bugg.er all about driving.

My son is only eight years old but whenever we are driving together we are always discussing road conditions and talk about whats going on at each intersection or what other drivers are doing.
I try to show him the correct way to drive in relation to constantly changing surroundings.
I want him to be confident within his own driving to the point where it is a naturally flowing thing, and constantly remind him that if he is confident and relaxed he is more aware of what the other guy is doing.

[Interceptor]

so driving a smaller, 4 cyl car is inherently safer than a fullsize 6/8cyl falcon/commodore, huh?

these photos are the result of what happened about 3 months ago

Tony Farrel, 24 lost control of his camry on a slight bend at a speed police estimate to be 160-180, he put 2 wheels in the dirt on the wrong side of the road and overcorrected, hitting a power pole pretty much just in front of the B pillar, the car hit the pole hard enough to blow the rear window out, and pushed into the car roughly 2/3 across where the drivers seat would normally be, and the impact was so hard that while the pole pushed that far in, the front and rear wheels still appear to be in line with each other.....

First aid was on the scene literally on scene within a minute, an ambulance was on scene within 5 minutes, but the driver died in the car before he could be released, and you could hear the passenger screaming a block away when the ambo's got her out of the car. she died 3-4 days later from what i heard.

couple of years ago a friend of mine rolled his EL Falcon about 20km along the same road at similar speeds at around 1am, it was a good 20 minutes before anyone arrived and neither the driver nor passenger could find thier phones.

one of the best trauma docs in queensland was on scene soon after and commented at the time that with the amount of blood that was around, he doubted anyone could be alive

both driver and passenger walked away from it, passenger with a few cuts and bruises, driver with a pretty mangled right arm and some cuts and bruises, IIRC he was in hospital for less than a week, but he's fine now

the message here? smaller cars will do the same speeds, but there's less to protect the occupants when things go to shit

[merlin]

The problem is I don't think there is a solution that will stop ALL young driver deaths. There are more and more cars on the road each year and accidents tend to be proportional to congestion.

What do I think would help:

1) Before you get issued your L's you have to attend a half day education session run by the RTA. This won't involve practical just theory for now.

2) L platers should no longer be allowed to be trained soley by their parents. Sorry but every second driver on the road is a moron - why would you want a moron training an impressionable youth = another moron. Thus make a certain number of proffesional instructer lessons compulsary - say 3 for arguments sake - once you do the 5 lessons you are eligible to apply for your P1 license. (yes I know a lot on here are good parents/drivers/teachers but we are enthusiasts - a minorty - you must always legislate to the lowest common denominator).

3) On the day of the P1 lisence test (ok stealing a little from the bike test now) you attend a 2 day RTA training course. The first day is a mixture of theory and practical driving on a skidpan. First half of second day everyone is on a skidpan that mimicks the road - traffic lights, roundabouts, stop signs all set up, skidpan can be a mixture of wet/dry and obstacles can jump out at random. Students must drive this course whilst instructers grade them. Second half of the day if the instructer deems they are ready all students get in the car by themselves and convoy through public streets with an instructer following at the rear in an RTA car grading everyone. At a certain stop point the instructer gets in each car and goes for a short drive with the student to ensure they are doing everything right. If yes they get a certificate. Take the certificate to the RTA and pass a written test on roadrules and attitude to get your lisence.

Having said all that I still don't think you can ever change the fact that many under 23 drivers are inexperienced, overconfident and invincible. But its a start.

[red_hotxr6]

Originally Posted by FPV8U

Power to Weight ratio's, Banning V8's & Turbo's is just a band aid...

All of you calling for the banning of these cars and enforcing of the power to weight regulations, can you tell me how that is going to help the death toll?

99% of these cars you see on the news are 6 cylinder falcons and commodores sure there is the odd 5.0L but even these DONT have as much power as a BF XT or VE Omega!

These rules and regs are just put in place to make govenments look like there trying to fix the problem, instead of spending some money on education and actually attempting to fix it.

So in the last month how many teenagers have died in high powered vehicles vs how many dead in a 4 cyl car.Not one of these guys should be able to drive a high powered car for 1 year after getting their licence.Let them get some sort of experience under there belt first.I think a lot of you protesters here would be a touch upset if one of these guys in the last month who have died had taken out your,wife gf,bf, a family or friend when they died.

[red_hotxr6]

Very good, i have never said that is going to solve the problem, but please show me the ratio of young people getting killed in high powered vehicles vs those killed in 4 cyl cars? 2-1, 5-1, 10-1. I would still like to hear these poor kids who have died complain, i want to be able to drive a v8 its my right, for a year, than watch them dead on tv, anyday of the week.

[EA2BA]

2,3,4,6,8 cylinders makes no difference, rwkw of just 50 is enough for you to kill yourself given enough road and a silly or unfortunate mistake or set of circumstances.

I agree education is the only hope, but as young people know better, I dont thin kit will do enough.

Personally, I look at this way, the media like to print every accident they can so a greater awareness is probably all we have now then being in the dark over previous years, more people get a licence every year, so the percentage remains the same, just more people have accidents.

Nothing much as changed over time, cars have gotten safer, maybe more powerful, more cars on the road, but at the end of the day the accidents happen when most cars are off the road, so what do you do. I think take them to a hospital show them the poor kid in traction, show the car the kid was him, SCARE tactics is the only hope.

red_hotxr6 I owned a 4cyl car on my P's i could get into more trouble in that car then my brothers V8 HQ statesman, so power aint a real reason.

[Den.]

Then hopefully we can get the over 65 drivers off the road. Over here they actually have HIGHER accident rates than the under 23's! That's why our comercials, media, etc no longer say younger drivers have the "highest accident rates". They now say "among the highest" but few people have noticed.....

But that's quite another can of worms! :SaiyanSmi

[red_hotxr6]

Originally Posted by Den.

Then hopefully we can get the over 65 drivers off the road. Over here they actually have HIGHER accident rates than the under 23's! That's why our comercials, media, etc no longer say younger drivers have the "highest accident rates". They now say "among the highest" but few people have noticed.....

But that's quite another can of worms! :SaiyanSmi

I am so sorry i missed that piece of news, where did it say that a 65 year old pensioner with 3 passengers were killed while doing 200klms an hour, and this happens how many times a month? I thought we were talking about young kids with hardly any driving experience, being able to buy a high powered vehicle driving way to fast for their experience and road conditions and killing innocent kids.And the really funny, stupid, part about all of this is that a lot of people here dont seem to see that it is wrong.Like every one here that has a licence they were taught the basics, 60 in a 60 zone how to reverse park, how and when to indicate etc etc, no where along the line were any of us taught how to handle a high powered car doing more than 150klms an hour on our suburban street. In other words these kids do not know what to do at that speed, and if you can not understand that a 4cyl car can never, ever match a v8 for speed unless it is HIGHLY MODIFIED, then they are going to keep dying and take other people with them.

[MITCHAY]

Originally Posted by red_hotxr6

So in the last month how many teenagers have died in high powered vehicles vs how many dead in a 4 cyl car.Not one of these guys should be able to drive a high powered car for 1 year after getting their licence.Let them get some sort of experience under there belt first.I think a lot of you protesters here would be a touch upset if one of these guys in the last month who have died had taken out your,wife gf,bf, a family or friend when they died.

I don't know how many were killed in high powered vehicles and how many were killed in a non high powered vehicle?

They're not going to give a POS airtime on the news because too many people believe that high powered cars are so damn dangerous and they have the bandwagon to support playing it on the news.

Oh well I'm fully licenced now :P It's amazing how much less attention you get from the cops without P plates. Funny that it's still the same car. I will still offer my support for Team P plate.

[FORD EB 4.0]

Maybe a device that records the speed of the vehicle of the P plater and their driving habits, basically a black box that can be simply linked to an authorised ckecking station where the vehicle can be called in at random , or randomly placed checking points where data can be uploaded similar to an E tag. RTA/ Pollice can do random checks anywhere/anytime and any antisocial driving ie speeding, wheels spin, excessive rpm all dealt with by long suspensions and fines.

[Keepleft]

Den. - Same as here. We got graduated licensing "because Australia had it'. They actually said that when they shoved it down our throats!!!!! Then they said road fatalitys for 16 year olds in the first year went down. Well DUH!! No one caught on to the fact that the reason why was because they weren't allowed to DRIVE!! And of course at 17 they STILL can't drive!

A primary goal with graduated licensing is to control that critical age 17 group. I will say this, although NSW was the first with this, it is all very good of Canada GovCo to generically say 'Australia', Australia is not one country in governance, but is a nation of soverign states. What you need to ask is - what state were they suggesting the Canadian, or Canadian-state 'graduated licensing system' came from??

The NSW system is being adopted nationwide, and will/does in administration form part the National Driver Training Scheme. We in turn source much of its program from Europe, primarily Sweden. (I'd have taken the German position but this terrifies Australian academics, seriously - but anyway).

Time to get rid of it and teach people how to drive instead of paralell park/pass a test. Teach car control and come up with a REAL driving test instead of the jokes they have now.

Require a driver to get sideways on wet pavement and straighten out before issuing a pass. After that, it's up to them.

The current programs intend that you avoid getting into trouble in the first place. Australia's former deputy Prime Minsiter, Anderson, did want actual road-craft, braking, skid control as part of the program. But remember, its the academics and public servants who see out MP's and who get to do the agency 'implementation'.

Get rid of GPS, traction control, stability control (They're actually legislating it IN as standard equip. here now!!), radar guided parking, lanechange, turn signals and cruise control.

Why would we remove lane change signalling requirement and turn signals (design rules) and remove cruise control??

Ban cellphones, in car Email systems, etc and ENFORCE IT!!

In NSW a fine exceeding $330 and you gain demerit points, but still its done everyday, every minute.

Stop convincing people that driving takes no brains/attention span and make them DRIVE when they're behind the heel. Raise the highway speed limits at LEAST 20%.

Australia's maximum speed from January 07 or so will be 130km/h - 80mph, a la Texas.

We still go too fast in residential streets and dreadfully slowly on freeways, our inter-urban freeways are not up to scratch insofar 'safety' as the European networks, owing second-class engineering safety specifications taught from US Interstate construction experience.

A good thing is that as the US adopts Euro median barrier, there will be a flow-on effect here as that US experience is passed on down through academia.

But the road users, thats a whole other issue.

[GXL078]

Raise the age to 19. Make insurance compulsory with scanners to enforce it.

[henry 351]

Australian national average deaths per 100,000 as at 2004 (latest figures I could find) avaraged 9.1.

Germany averaged 7.1 and the UK 5.6. Now, considering they have far higher average highway speeds and have to deal with ice and snow for many months of the year, I wonder what the fundamental difference is?

I assume with the Germans its driver education, but what are the Poms doing to have such a good record?

[Tote]

Originally Posted by henry 351

Australian national average deaths per 100,000 as at 2004 (latest figures I could find) avaraged 9.1.

Germany averaged 7.1 and the UK 5.6. Now, considering they have far higher average highway speeds and have to deal with ice and snow for many months of the year, I wonder what the fundamental difference is?

I assume with the Germans its driver education, but what are the Poms doing to have such a good record?

I would think that the fact that most people in London don't need or own a car would probably have some impact. Unless you live in an inner city area in Australia you need to drive.
Regards,
Tote

[XRQTOR]

[QUOTE=flappist]True, but my nearest track is Benaraby which is about 280km away.
The next closest is Willowbank which is about 400km away.
I can aford to travel that far but many young people can't so there is an "unofficial dragstrip" at Tuan than no one knows about except the security staff at the 24hr chip mill just up the road who call the police whenever they see headlights.

A lot of the problem really is video games and "2 fast 2 furious" style movies that tend to imply to young people that doing really silly things is cool and you never get hurt and even if you do you just press "restart" and you are all better again.

Mate i was going and watching the run's well before that movie came out, even before i got my licence.

The licencing system up here is a joke. Learner drivers are taught to pass a test not control a motor vehicle. When I learned we used to go out into the bush and play at sliding etc because our cars were not powerful enough to spin the wheels on dry bitumen.

I agree people are taught to pass a test there not taught driving skill's, this is what need's to be adressed. Teach people to judge speed and distances and the distance in which a car will pull up in.

Maybe that is a possible but VERY unpopular solution. Limit new drivers to VERY underpowered vehicles.

They'll still be an idiot regardless of what they drive, notice all the recent fatel accidents have been in low powered car's. To have fun or feel any form of rush they need to push the car hard, speed is the problem here not power.


Or better still:

The penalty for hooning is to have your licence endorsed "low power only" and restrict for a period of one or more years to 50kw/tonne manual only or whatever.
A large pink "H" plate must be displayed at all times. No excuses. If the only car in the family is a V8 or whatever then you WALK.
The penaly for breaching this is the same as unlicenced driving.

Driving in a wussmobile for a year will improve you skills significantly because you will have to learn to drive or you will never get anywhere.

Wrong driving a low powered car for a year will not make you a better driver, people need to be shown how to do things. Let them make mistakes then correct them.[/QUOTE]

I'm due to face court for some serious driving offences and im currecntly in the process of doing a offender's driving program run by the police, ambo's, RTA, fire brigade. They all blame highpowered car's for the death's of P plater's but in the last 12 months alone in nsw theyvé been restriceted to low powered car's yet there's been a 2o% jump in the death rate in my local area alone, the hwp driving instructor who told us this clearly pointed it out but still belive's that performance car's are the problem.

Now i may be looking at this all the wong way but every video i've seen and every picture ivé been shown while doing this course have basically all stemmed from 1 thing, driver inability. Not judging speed, not judging distance, not watching the road and they all lead to over correction or in some cases the wrong decsion being made and the loss of controll. Speed is a contributing factor some of the time but no car was ever designed to hit a pole or a tree at 6o+k's. Teach people HOW to drive not how to pass a test.

[XRQTOR]

Originally Posted by red_hotxr6

Very good, i have never said that is going to solve the problem, but please show me the ratio of young people getting killed in high powered vehicles vs those killed in 4 cyl cars? 2-1, 5-1, 10-1. I would still like to hear these poor kids who have died complain, i want to be able to drive a v8 its my right, for a year, than watch them dead on tv, anyday of the week.

From 04-05 it was 4-1, with the lowest being high performance car's.

[XRQTOR]

Originally Posted by red_hotxr6

Like every one here that has a licence they were taught the basics, 60 in a 60 zone how to reverse park, how and when to indicate etc etc, no where along the line were any of us taught how to handle a high powered car doing more than 150klms an hour on our suburban street. In other words these kids do not know what to do at that speed, and if you can not understand that a 4cyl car can never, ever match a v8 for speed unless it is HIGHLY MODIFIED, then they are going to keep dying and take other people with them.

And no low powered car can hit 15ok's : , how many car's on australian roads ARN'T physically capable of doing atleast 15ok's, 1% would be an overstatment.

[nugget378]

Originally Posted by henry 351

I assume with the Germans its driver education, but what are the Poms doing to have such a good record?

Nothing different Id say,they just cant afford to drive since margaret thatcher..:

[MITCHAY]

Originally Posted by XRQTOR

And no low powered car can hit 15ok's : , how many car's on australian roads ARN'T physically capable of doing atleast 15ok's, 1% would be an overstatment.

Dude it's a never ending battle _ Some people will just not get that it is poor drivers causing these accidents not high performance cars.

As for the 4cyl argument. Well I owned an N/A one and currently own a turbo one. The N/A one did 150km/h+ very easy!

[stockel]

Bring in compulsory pre drive self gratification, that ought to calm some of these people down a bit on the road.

[Greenhorn]

on my way home from town i saw a 80's landcruiser that had taken a power pole out and had rolled, then after we got passed it sum one driving a lambo decided to overtake 3 cars at well over 150k's coming up to a blind spot. the lambo certainly wasnt a p plater and im sure the landcruiser wasnt either, so why should P platers have all these restrictions enforced on them when a lot of full licence holders cant drive properly either

[T_Terror]

Originally Posted by stockel

Bring in compulsory pre drive self gratification, that ought to calm some of these people down a bit on the road.

Lol, having a **** before going out for a drive. I love it.

Youre probably right too, i think everyone cruises very slowly in that "post sex" stage.

[Ives]

http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=74683

[tamara1779]

I have five students I taught last year, just released from hospital after an accident on the year 12 graduation night. One other- a friend's nephew is still on life support. They don't think and they don't have the skills to handle any vehicle a lot of the time. Our 16 year old starts racing speedway next year with us, as all of our five kids will do. It won't stop them being stupid, but at least they might be able to get themselves out of enough trouble to not get killed. I shudder when I recall the lack of skills I had before I started racing. They really need to do PRACTICAL courses and not just weekend ones either

[poolkeeper]

Originally Posted by Greenhorn

on my way home from town i saw a 80's landcruiser that had taken a power pole out and had rolled, then after we got passed it sum one driving a lambo decided to overtake 3 cars at well over 150k's coming up to a blind spot. the lambo certainly wasnt a p plater and im sure the landcruiser wasnt either, so why should P platers have all these restrictions enforced on them when a lot of full licence holders cant drive properly either

Yeah I saw a bmw m3 and holden crewman racing this morning 6am, in a road works area (busy aswell) The crewman was doing all kind of shit trying to keep up. Fishy's, tailgating, weaving. Why should p platers cop all the shit, when half off it is full licensed drivers.