Fog / Driving Lights and the Cops

[macca_779]

If you drive with your fog lights on in normal conditions your a ****er period. Just don't do it personally i use mine in the rain or in fog but thats it. I use them ocassionally on country roads to get more side view but i've aimed mine way down

[Bucknaked]

Its not against the law in Canberra to use them. In Canberra, almost everyone uses them. I don't use mine in any condition other than fog. I think even in the brochure it calls these fog lamps. Apparently fog lamps and driving lamps are 2 completley seperate things.

These lights do dazzle people. Why do people choose to use these in clear daylight conditions. I can understand night time. Switch them off during the day time.

I've lowered my lights. So now they don't illuminate the road as much as before, but tend to spread the beam out wider so I can see more of whats beside me.

[Rodp]

Originally Posted by Dabbler

True, I was always getting angry flashs from on-coming traffic in my AU with low beams on.

I drive with the fog lights on in my BA and have never had an angry flash. I think they help to light up the road directly in front of the car. The other XR's I see with them on don't dazzle me at all. I think they improve your visiblity to other drivers.

Call me a poser or a ****er if you want, but if I want to use them why shouldn't I? I will use them whenever I want. In fact I think I will go out the garage right now and put them on. SO THERE. (dammit, can't find a smiley poking out it's tongue).

Like I've posted earlier in the thread, I'm dazzled by many different types of fog/driving lights, particularly VX commys. AU's and BA's do affect me as well.
For some reason they affect me more than high beams do, I can handle high beam because it's just intense light, fog lights tend to do something crazy to my eyes and make me see strange lines of different intensity light which greatly impares my forward vision.

An example I also used earlier was driving on Heathcote Rd, 1 lane each way, 100kph strip or what can be a little twisty road.

You're in your AU with your fogs travelling towards me at 100kph, I'm in my BA (fogs off, I don't have fog envy) travelling towards you at 100kph. Now, your fog lights are now imparing my vision as we attempt to pass within 2 meters of each other at a relative speed of 200kph.

Still think it's a good idea to drive with your fogs on?

[Doogstar]

Originally Posted by Rodp

Like I've posted earlier in the thread, I'm dazzled by many different types of fog/driving lights, particularly VX commys. AU's and BA's do affect me as well.
For some reason they affect me more than high beams do, I can handle high beam because it's just intense light, fog lights tend to do something crazy to my eyes and make me see strange lines of different intensity light which greatly impares my forward vision.

An example I also used earlier was driving on Heathcote Rd, 1 lane each way, 100kph strip or what can be a little twisty road.

You're in your AU with your fogs travelling towards me at 100kph, I'm in my BA (fogs off, I don't have fog envy) travelling towards you at 100kph. Now, your fog lights are now imparing my vision as we attempt to pass within 2 meters of each other at a relative speed of 200kph.

Still think it's a good idea to drive with your fogs on?

The AU didn't have any extra fog or driving lights, just damn bright headlights. I had them adjusted lower and people still thought I had them on high beam.

4WD's are the worst for glare because the headlights are so high up, it's the headlights that are affecting you, not the fog lights.

If a car is coming towards you with strong lights, don't look at them, look at the road directly in front of you and slightly to the left and you won't get dazzled.

[DanielXR8]

Originally Posted by ShockWaveXR6na

Someones had his Thesaurus out... :newangel:
Oh and ill continue to use them during the day until someone decides to book me for doing so and can actually prove what the law is, coz as far as im concerned you do a driving test and are questioned about highbeam etc and when you can use it, but I have never personally read anything about foglights and when they can or can't be used.

Well you were honest enough to say you have them on for looks, but as to when to use them. If you read the word "fog" then you have read what they are for and when to use them.

As far as I can tell on my infrequent trips to Sydney, the whole city is in a 24 hour fog given the number of cars with them fitted and turned on. As someone who lives outside Sydney, I suspect many people in Sydney live in a fog, so maybe its justified. ;)

Dan

[henry 351]

ADR rule 217 subsection 1 states "foglamps may only be illuminated in fog or atmospheric conditions where visibility is minimal"

However, Victorian law states it is not illegal to use fog lamps during the day, but in N.S.W. it is illegal. Other state I have no idea.

I find it odd that state law can apparently override an A.D.R. though, mind you Bracksy did it with the speed camera kph margin...

[AnthonyQLD]

Originally Posted by Dabbler

I drive with the fog lights on in my BA and have never had an angry flash. I think they help to light up the road directly in front of the car. The other XR's I see with them on don't dazzle me at all. I think they improve your visiblity to other drivers.

Call me a poser or a ****er if you want, but if I want to use them why shouldn't I? I will use them whenever I want. In fact I think I will go out the garage right now and put them on. SO THERE. (dammit, can't find a smiley poking out it's tongue).

agree there on my car and ill use them if i want :the_finge

[Blue Oval Mopar Man]

Well use them if you feel you can just because you have them , but I also happen to think they are one of the obligitary ricer accessories .

[Keepleft]

Originally Posted by henry 351

ADR rule 217 subsection 1 states "foglamps may only be illuminated in fog or atmospheric conditions where visibility is minimal"

NO, It's Australian Road Rule Rule 217 (not Australian Design Rule) and it deals with REAR fog lights only.



However, Victorian law states it is not illegal to use fog lamps during the day, but in N.S.W. it is illegal. Other state I have no idea.

Victorian law states nothing of the sort. The Peoples Republic of Victoria simply does NOT have an additional regulation to the Australian Road Rules SPECIFICALLY prohibiting the use of FRONT fog lights in clear conditions. Ditto in QLD and SA.


I find it odd that state law can apparently override an A.D.R. though, mind you Bracksy did it with the speed camera kph margin.

The USE of a vehicles lights are governed by TRAFFIC LAW. However, a lights performance parameters, mounting-installation AND Wiring requirment ARE a matter for ADR's, and in lighting, most of our ADR's are direct UN/ECE specification. Example; our ADR52-Rear fog lights is UN/ECE38.

After the ADR process a vehicle (and its lighting) 'for life' are subject to the National Vehicle Standards, these are similar in ADR requirement with some minor changes.

Bracksies behaviour has not been challenged at the High Court or via National Metrology process. Basically IF there is a Commonwealth Standard, the States shall comply, as is the case for example with recent QLD legislation bringing QLD Police operation of 'speed measuring devices' inline with the Australian Standard.

ADR18 in relation to speedometers has recently changed to fully harmonise us with the Global Technical Regulations (UN/ECE), at 100km/h a compliant car will NOT read less than 100km/h BUT might read up to 4 or so km/h above it etc (tolerance), the previous version had an allowance plus or minus 10% with a 4km/h eitherway on that.

..

And so it goes...

[Doogstar]

Originally Posted by Blue Oval Mopar Man

Well use them if you feel you can just because you have them , but I also happen to think they are one of the obligitary ricer accessories .

Right, that's why they are standard on Ford XR's and up. Fords are ricers, right? no?

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by Blue Oval Mopar Man

If your "FAG" lights are on and bright, you will get all of the nearly 800 watts of lights from my car ! simple !

That is the most dangerous and pathetic comment I have heard. I seem to remember the correct action to take when dazzled by oncoming lights is to look to the left of the road, slow down to a safe speed if necessary and wait for the offending vehicle to pass. I don't remember seeing it written in any road laws that the correct action is to blind that person with 800w and cause a huge accident (use the term accident very loosely). After your statement, I am glad that I live in a different state, at least I know I am safe from you and I don't have to clean up your carnage. I also hope that one day a cop just happens to forget to dip his lights, so when you drill him with 800w, he throws the book at you. Switching to higher power lights to intentionally blind the other driver is not only illegal but bloody stupid, grow up and behave like the professional driver that you claim to be.

[Smoke Pursuit]

Originally Posted by geckoxr8

That is the most dangerous and pathetic comment I have heard. I seem to remember the correct action to take when dazzled by oncoming lights is to look to the left of the road, slow down to a safe speed if necessary and wait for the offending vehicle to pass. I don't remember seeing it written in any road laws that the correct action is to blind that person with 800w and cause a huge accident (use the term accident very loosely). After your statement, I am glad that I live in a different state, at least I know I am safe from you and I don't have to clean up your carnage. I also hope that one day a cop just happens to forget to dip his lights, so when you drill him with 800w, he throws the book at you. Switching to higher power lights to intentionally blind the other driver is not only illegal but bloody stupid, grow up and behave like the professional driver that you claim to be.

All over 55 watt lights that point to the ground.. There are some absolute dumbs around and this tool happens to be one.. Foglights dont blind you if they are factory fitted, its only the aftermarket poofta riceburner ones that Autobarn and Supercheap sell which are the ones that cause the trouble, they arent ADR compliant either in most cases..

Neways if you kill someone iwht your 800 watts of light good luck when you go inside! :monkes:

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by ShockWaveXR6na

Neways if you kill someone iwht your 800 watts of light good luck when you go inside! :monkes:

Especially when you get to play mummies and daddies with Bubba!

[b2tf]

Glad to see I am not the only one who thinks the "fight fire with fire" approach to this problem is just asking for trouble.

[Smoke Pursuit]

Originally Posted by geckoxr8

Especially when you get to play mummies and daddies with Bubba!

Yeh, whats he gonna do then, get out his pocket torch and try and repell it with 1 watt of light..

This subject is old and boring, until the police make up their mind on what is legal and what isnt ill continue to drive with mine on during the day for safety, if they wanna book me then ill learn my lesson and turn them off, but I havent had anyone flash me in 12 months, and the popularity of foglights nowadays is huge!

Maybe they would be better off going around and making sure everyones lights were correctly positioned, coz there are millions of cars out there with either lights that are too high or lights with those crazy purple / blue rice burner bulbs in them, and no im not talking about the Xenon bulbs, im talking about the asain imported ones that all the old supras etc run..

[geckoGT]

Sometimes I wish I were a cop. Then I would drive around with fog lamps (correctly adjusted of course), which are legal in QLD during all conditions. I would then hand a big fat ticket to all subscribers of the "I think it is stupid so I am going to flash you" approach. I would also declare war on tailgaters (especially trucks that tailgate), speeding trucks (as well as other speeders of course) and people with poorly adjusted or defective lighting. I am tired of cleaning up the mess after such stupid behaviour, maybe I need a holiday (2 mths to go, can't wait).

[Smoke Pursuit]

Originally Posted by geckoxr8

Sometimes I wish I were a cop. Then I would drive around with fog lamps (correctly adjusted of course), which are legal in QLD during all conditions. I would then hand a big fat ticket to all subscribers of the "I think it is stupid so I am going to flash you" approach. I would also declare war on tailgaters (especially trucks that tailgate), speeding trucks (as well as other speeders of course) and people with poorly adjusted or defective lighting. I am tired of cleaning up the mess after such stupid behaviour, maybe I need a holiday (2 mths to go, can't wait).

I wonder if Mr 800 wat of spotlight man would flash me for using Foglights in a Kenworth T900?? Id run him off the road then :1syellow1 Id love to be a copper in QLD aswell, get a brand new XR6 Turbo every 4 months and go around defecting heaps off the road, the government do nothing about unroadworthy cars nowadays, they are everywhere... From bald tyres to poorly adjusted lights, its just not fair for the rest of us who work hard, spend the money to get the right gear and put up with the other 20% who cant keep their cars roadworthy... _2:

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by ShockWaveXR6na

Yeh, whats he gonna do then, get out his pocket torch and try and repell it with 1 watt of light..

This subject is old and boring, until the police make up their mind on what is legal and what isnt ill continue to drive with mine on during the day for safety, if they wanna book me then ill learn my lesson and turn them off, but I havent had anyone flash me in 12 months, and the popularity of foglights nowadays is huge!

Maybe they would be better off going around and making sure everyones lights were correctly positioned, coz there are millions of cars out there with either lights that are too high or lights with those crazy purple / blue rice burner bulbs in them, and no im not talking about the Xenon bulbs, im talking about the asain imported ones that all the old supras etc run..

I drive with mine on too, all times of the day which is legal in QLD. I have never been flashed either so obviously others are not fussed by them (correct globes and adjusted well). Unless the law in QLD changes I will not change my ways, end of story. I see any device that increases visibility as a good thing and increases my chances of getting myself and my family to where we are going in one piece. MY wife has fog lamps on her Mazda SP23 and she drives with them on too, for the same reason. If I had my way we would follow the lead of many of the EU countries that have made it compulsory to have lights on at all times. If being safer and increasing my chances of being seen make me a ****er, so be it.

[Redrum]

Originally Posted by LTDHO

Each state has different laws.

In Vic they are illegal as they 'dazzle' oncoming drivers. But even Vic cops use them!

i guess it's one of those laws that are used when they want to get you on something and can't find anything else!

Driving lights are not illegal in Vic, just a hell of a lot of rules applying to how many you can have and where you can mount them etc. Fog lights, you can only have one pair and they can only be used in fog. They can be yellow etc where driving lights must be clear. Unless yellow etc if asked just call them driving lights and usually no probs. The type that are a fixed beam, almost like high beams, that get used by 4wds, would be treated the same as high beams, you left them up and dazzled oncoming traffic, you would get pin failing to dip headlights. Most driving lights though mounted on modern vehicles are not these type.

Clear as mud.

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by Redrum

Driving lights are not illegal in Vic, just a hell of a lot of rules applying to how many you can have and where you can mount them etc. Fog lights, you can only have one pair and they can only be used in fog. They can be yellow etc where driving lights must be clear. Unless yellow etc if asked just call them driving lights and usually no probs. The type that are a fixed beam, almost like high beams, that get used by 4wds, would be treated the same as high beams, you left them up and dazzled oncoming traffic, you would get pin failing to dip headlights. Most driving lights though mounted on modern vehicles are not these type.

Clear as mud.

There are very different laws applying to driving lights compared to fog lights. The ones fitted to BA's are fog lights because they are aimed lower than low beam and have a spread beam. Driving lights are aimed hirher and have a beam concentrated for extra distance, as you say like high beam. Therefore the lasw that apply to driving lights do not apply to fog lights. Fog lights may also be either clear or coloured and must be able to be operated independantly of main headlights, driving lights must be used in conjunction with high beam only and must dip with the high beam. Call the lights on the BA what you wish, they are fog lights (unless altered from factory spec) and therefore come under the fog light laws. If in your state it is illegal to use fog lights in clear conditions, then that is the law. In most states it is not illegal and in my opinion nor should it be, if they are used in their standard condition they are no more dazzling than low beam. Poorly fitted/ adjusted lighting is not a cause to ban a lighting system, just fine those that have them poorly set up. If poor adjustment is reason for baning them, then low beams, high beams and spot lights need to be banned too as I have seen many examples of poor use/ adjustment on these systems too.

[Redrum]

Originally Posted by geckoxr8

There are very different laws applying to driving lights compared to fog lights. The ones fitted to BA's are fog lights because they are aimed lower than low beam and have a spread beam. Driving lights are aimed hirher and have a beam concentrated for extra distance, as you say like high beam. Therefore the lasw that apply to driving lights do not apply to fog lights. Fog lights may also be either clear or coloured and must be able to be operated independantly of main headlights, driving lights must be used in conjunction with high beam only and must dip with the high beam. Call the lights on the BA what you wish, they are fog lights (unless altered from factory spec) and therefore come under the fog light laws. If in your state it is illegal to use fog lights in clear conditions, then that is the law. In most states it is not illegal and in my opinion nor should it be, if they are used in their standard condition they are no more dazzling than low beam. Poorly fitted/ adjusted lighting is not a cause to ban a lighting system, just fine those that have them poorly set up. If poor adjustment is reason for baning them, then low beams, high beams and spot lights need to be banned too as I have seen many examples of poor use/ adjustment on these systems too.

Driving lights vary, not all present a pin point beam, driving lights in fact also present spread beams and low beams.

I know when Ford brought out the BA, the Fairmont Ghia's lights did not comply with either Australian Design Rules or Road Rules Victoria, not sure which.

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by Redrum

Driving lights vary, not all present a pin point beam, driving lights in fact also present spread beams and low beams.

I know when Ford brought out the BA, the Fairmont Ghia's lights did not comply with either Australian Design Rules or Road Rules Victoria, not sure which.

That may be true but it is the operation of the lights that is different, fog lights can be operated independantly of the low beam, driving lights can not. Therfore they are covered by different laws as they are different lighting systems.

[Keepleft]

Originally Posted by Redrum

Driving lights vary, not all present a pin point beam, driving lights in fact also present spread beams and low beams.

I know when Ford brought out the BA, the Fairmont Ghia's lights did not comply with either Australian Design Rules or Road Rules Victoria, not sure which.

Driving lights vary? Sure, insofar as 'performance'. Again; DRIVING LIGHTS by definition and terminology are lamps intended for use ONLY with a vehicles high-beam. Colour of permitted light - 'white optic'. Aftermarket type must have a switch of their own that will only enable operation when the cars headlight switch is on high-beam.

Front fog lights are wired to enable operation on park, low and high-beam, it is most beneficial to use them on park alone when visibility is seriously reduced. Colour of permitted light - 'White optic' or 'selective yellow'.

The BA Fairmont Ghia lamps were called by Fords advertising blurb 'decorative lights'. These were equipped with Hella's then marketed 'Cool Blue' 5-watt wedge bulbs. Because the car had in effect FOUR park (position) lights, the lamps were found to be non-complying with ADR.

We could find no ADR for 'decorative lamps' and importantly, the issue of 'grouping' of lamps and inherent meaning that no additional lights could be fitted put these in contravention. That is to say you could not then add a set of front fog lights should you have wished and or additional driving lamps.

The lamps were surely created by some alcohol fuelled marketing soul. FoMoCo would have been better dedicating the mount position to a set of front fog lights. (Note the Mazda's of the time, an alternative).

Front fog lights, nor the BA Fairmont Ghia's nutty decorative lamps are DRL's, daytime running lamps, now pushed by do-gooder safety nazis. Yet, another source of glare we do not need. The optional use of your low beam etc under appropriate conditions shall suffice.

[R0bb0]

From Transport Operations (Road Use Management—Vehicle Standards and Safety) Regulation 1999 Schedule 1 located on www.legislation.qld.gov.au.

Division 4 Daytime running lights
Daytime running lights
(1) A pair of daytime running lights may be fitted to a motor
vehicle.
(2) A pair of daytime running lights fitted to a motor vehicle with
4 or more wheels must be fitted with the centre of each light—
(a) at least 600mm from the centre of the other light; and
(b) not over 510mm from the nearer side of the vehicle.
(3) However, a pair of daytime running lights fitted to a motor
vehicle under 1300mm wide may be fitted with the centre of
each light not under 400mm from the centre of the other light.
(4) When on, a daytime running light must—
(a) show a white or yellow light visible from the front of the
vehicle; and
(b) not use over 25W.
(5) Daytime running lights must be wired so they are off when a
headlight, other than a headlight being used as a flashing
signal, is on.
(6) For subsection (3), the width of a motor vehicle is measured
disregarding any anti-skid device mounted on wheels, central
tyre inflation systems, lights, mirrors, reflectors, signalling
devices and tyre pressure gauges.

Division 12 Fog lights
Front fog lights
(1) A pair of front fog lights may be fitted to a motor vehicle with
4 or more wheels.
(2) A pair of front fog lights, or a single front fog light, may be
fitted to a motorbike or motortrike.
(3) A pair of front fog lights fitted to a motor vehicle with 4 or
more wheels must have the centre of each light not over
400mm from the nearer side of the vehicle unless the centres
of the lights are at least 600mm apart.
(4) If the top of the front fog light is higher than the top of any
low-beam headlight on the vehicle, the centre of the fog light
must not be higher than the centre of the low-beam headlight.
(5) A front fog light must—
(a) when on—
(i) project white or yellow light in front of the vehicle;
and
(ii) be a low-beam light; and
(b) be able to be operated independently of any headlight;
and
(c) be fitted so the light from it does not reflect off the
vehicle into the driver’s eyes.


Also regarding using lights (From Transport Operations (Road Use Management—Road Rules) Regulation 1999):

Using lights when driving at night in hazardous weather
conditions
(1) A driver must not drive at night, or in hazardous weather
conditions causing reduced visibility unless—

(a[I]) the headlights, tail lights and number plate light fitted to
the driver’s vehicle are operating effectively and are
clearly visible; and
(b) if the vehicle is fitted with clearance lights or side
marker lights—those lights are operating effectively and
are clearly visible.
Maximum penalty—20 penalty units.
(2) However, this section does not apply to a driver if—
(a) the driver’s vehicle is stopped or parked at a place on a
length of road, or in an area, to which a parking control
sign applies; and
(b) the driver is permitted to stop or park at that place under
this regulation.
(3) Also, a driver driving during the day in fog, or other
hazardous weather conditions causing reduced visibility, may
drive without the headlights of the driver’s vehicle operating
if the vehicle is fitted with front fog lights and those lights are
operating effectively and are clearly visible.
(4) In subsection (1), a reference to a kind of light fitted to a
vehicle is a reference to a light of that kind required to be
fitted to the vehicle under the Standards and Safety
Regulation.

[Keepleft]

Robbo - As I've been saying.

Though Robbo's highlighted QLD legislation (QLD's adoption of the ARR's AND The National Vehicle Standards), you can see that it is *mandatory* to have either your low beam and or your front fog lights on under hazardous weather conditions causing reduced visibility. In NSW we'll issue a single demerit point for not doing so.

The daytime running light bulb as fitted is 21 watts, the National Standard (AND ADR on the matter) mentions 25 watts, this takes into account wattage-tolerance and 24 volt systems.

[henry 351]

My post before was a summary from a newspaper article regarding problems with the new Fairmont Ghia, they have a "decorative" light under the main headlight which has been causing some drivers grief (i.e. getting booked).

It proves that you shouldn't believe everything you read then...

[Keepleft]

Henry351 - Indeed. The very day these slipped through to market I had an email sent to each states senior traffic police and each Transport minister, and DOTARS highlighting identified issues. These arrived on the market at the time of the blue-bulb controversy, where some folk complained about having been booked for using ADR compliant bulbs. Bulb issue mostly sorted now.

One of my bugbears is that worthwhile vehicular such as an EU-like mandated rear fog (enforcement an issue I know - but...), and ECE triangle are overlooked, yet dopey items like cornering lamps and non compliant with any standard 'lights' will get a see in.

Symptomatic of a need to toughen-up our ADR compliance-inspection process.

In the BA's case, as stated earlier, they really would have been better making these a fully compliant set of fogs, or even DRL's (P21), yes - even cornering lamps.....