HELP! I need reasons why a clevo is better than a windsor

[xbgs351]

Originally Posted by LeMans

So when Ford Australia wanted more HP in the 70s they had to go more cubes (because that’s how you did it in those days) and the lighter Windsor was dropped for the reliability of the heavier Clevo.

Ford first used the 302 Windsor. When they wanted more cubic capacity they used the 351 Windsor, before switching to the 351 Cleveland.

In regards to engine weights:

Originally Posted by Dan Jones Website

http://www.mustangsandmore.com/ubb/D...ngineSwap.html
Engine Weight and Dimension Comparison
--------------------------------------

The following numbers come from an early Ford SVO catalog and are for
"typical" engines. The dimensions include such things as air cleaners, oil
filters, water pump fan, etc., but not bellhousings.

Engine Width Length Height Weight

289-302W 24.0 29.0 27.5 460
302 Boss 24.5 29.0 28.5 500
351W 25.0 29.0 29.0 525
351C 25.5 29.0 29.0 550
351M-400 26.0 29.0 29.0 575

This is consistent with my experience (and other published numbers). As a
check, I weighed several sets of heads and got the following weights:

50.0 lbs 289/302 - complete including rockers
56.5 lbs 351C 2bbl open chamber - bare
58.0 lbs 351C 2bbl open chamber - complete except for rockers
60.0 lbs 351C 4bbl closed chamber - bare

Adding 2 to 3 lbs for valvetrain weight to the 4bbl closed chamber heads,
yields 12 to 13 lbs more per head than a smallblock Windsor. For the
pair of heads, figure on 25 lbs extra for Cleveland heads. A Cleveland
block may actually be a bit lighter than a Windsor block, since they have
a lower deck and thinner cylinder walls. Thus a 351C should be about 25
lbs more than a 351W (525 lbs vs 550 lbs). The 302 Boss weight estimate
seems high compared to a 302W, especially considering it's aluminum intake.

Originally Posted by LeMans

Fast-forward to 2006. Comparing the two engines today is a totally different game. You want 600hp 7500 rpm and reliably out of a 302 Windsor? You got it! We have the technology and know-how. It might not be cheap, but in the end you will have one of the best capacity-per-weight pushrod engines ever built by anyone anywhere.

Just my view of the world :yeees:

This is also the case for the Cleveland, although some are also achieving these results using factory heads.

[RACINGdork]

http://www.savefile.com/files.php?fid=9944649

no secondarys, just cruzin in ankle deep water. (filmed by didgi still cam)

go the clevo, i think i may have an erection

[noosacuda]

Clevo's are heavier,therefore a more secure anchorage for your boat. (LOL) All V8's are cool.

[1TUFFUTE]

Originally Posted by Donut King

wheezer has suffered 6 consecutive bathurst losses, clevo was much more successful, 'nuff said ;)

mmm thats all that counts :evil_laug

[aussiemart]

Originally Posted by exKermitGreenXR8

(Hopefully) I will be getting an ZA and its got a 351c in it and im a windsor man. I love them for sound a hard revs and other reasons. Please give me some reasons why a clevo is better than a windsor. Thanks for your thoughts!
Timbo.

Mate if it's a fairlane, then handling is not going to be no1 priority, as far as performance per dollar you can't beat a good 351 clevo. windsors are great but if you have a good 351 clevo short block to start with your set. the 302 wind has a great oil system but the 351 wind has a main bearing diameter that chews the bearings. so a boss 351 has it's bad points.

My 351 clevo would cost less than half of what it would cost to get a 302 windsor into the 12 second zone in a fairlane....and how many 351 clevos have run in the 11 second zone over the years with a ported set of factory heads or some std closed chamber 4v's and a crane f246 cam...heaps imho.

[ebxr8240]

The oil issue on BOTH engines will hardly be an issue with what you are using this engine for. You cannot compare a 5.0 against a 5.8..
A stout stroker of either will do the job...
In any case go with Dart or Man O war block, if you have concerns on either motor...


I have added all the victories up at Bathurst ? But it would be interesting.

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by ebxr8240

The oil issue on BOTH engines will hardly be an issue with what you are using this engine for. You cannot compare a 5.0 against a 5.8..
A stout stroker of either will do the job...
In any case go with Dart or Man O war block, if you have concerns on either motor...


I have added all the victories up at Bathurst ? But it would be interesting.

I thought I'd do this... since its nice and easy and nobody else has bothered yet...

Bathurst victories in Cleveland V8 powered vehicles -
1970 - Ford Falcon XW GT-HO
1971 - Ford Falcon XY GT-HO
1973 - Ford Falcon XA GT
1974 - Ford Falcon XA GT
1977 - Ford Falcon XC
1981 - Ford Falcon XD

Total - 6.

Bathurst victories in Windsor V8 powered vehicles -
1967 - Ford Falcon XR GT
1994 - Ford Falcon EB
1998 - Ford Falcon EL
2006 - Ford Falcon BA
2007 - Ford Falcon BF

Total - 5.

I assume the XW that one was a Phase II, hence its inclusion in the Cleveland ranks, if its a Phase I, well then. Now that's not so far apart then, is it?

Here's an interesting one though... whatbout outright ATCC victories?

Australian Touring Car Championship Wins in Cleveland powered vehicles -
1973 - Ford Falcon GT-HO
1976 - Ford Falcon GT
1977 - Ford Falcon
1981 - Ford Falcon XD
1982 - Ford Falcon XD
1984 - Ford Falcon XE

Total - 6.

Australian Touring Car Championship Wins in Windsor powered vehicles -
1965 - Ford Mustang
1966 - Ford Mustang
1967 - Ford Mustang
1968 - Ford Mustang
1969 - Ford Mustang
1993 - Ford Falcon EB
1995 - Ford Falcon EF
1997 - Ford Falcon EL
2003 - Ford Falcon BA
2004 - Ford Falcon BA
2005 - Ford Falcon BA

Total - 11.

So they're ultra close at Bathurst and the Windsor dominates in outright victories.

Sofar as using the ATCC as a basis for comparing the two engines, the much put-down Windsor is lightyears ahead. :

[BZINGA]

good god why has this been dug up? Im drunk so go easy if the answers in front of me please lol.

[sleekism]

Why has this been bought up???

Cleveland vs Windsor?? Are we talking original blocks or aftermarket??

http://rocketind.com.au/search.php?b...=Crate+Engines

http://trickandmanswetoracing.com.au...-packages.html

I think the real question is how deep is your pockets because there is enough aftermarket parts available to make them as good as each other.

If I was getting a Mustang or an XR-XT Falcon than the Windsor would be the go. They really are nice little engines.

The Cleveland is a good Aussie engine so it wouldn't be a Falcon without one.

[aussiemart]

Originally Posted by sleekism

I think the real question is how deep is your pockets because there is enough aftermarket parts available to make them as good as each other.

Exactly, if you don't feel like spending ten grand or more to have a little fun then i don't think you can beat the clevo.

And again bathurst cars are cars that need to handle, so it makes sense that the windsor would have more bathurst victories, this is a fairlane guys so i think we need to keep the outright use in mind here.

Carefull choice of parts i would say four grand could build you a hydro cam everyday driver clevo to go into the 12 second zone in a fairlane and if you could build it yourself a hell of a lot less, i have done it. and if the car already has a good short block to start with now then all you need is some head work and the cheap cam.

[Falcon Coupe]

Originally Posted by Steffo

I thought I'd do this... since its nice and easy and nobody else has bothered yet...


So they're ultra close at Bathurst and the Windsor dominates in outright victories.

Sofar as using the ATCC as a basis for comparing the two engines, the much put-down Windsor is lightyears ahead. :

One engine raced for 14 years, the other over 25 with a 50/50 chance in recent years due to only one other engine in competition.

Not exactly light years ahead.

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by Falcon Coupe

One engine raced for 14 years, the other over 25 with a 50/50 chance in recent years due to only one other engine in competition.

Not exactly light years ahead.

5 of the Windsor's 11 ATCC victories occured in the 1960s, meaning lots of other competition. 5 of 11 is 45.45%. Almost half.

[aussiemart]

ask dicky what engine he would have rarther had in the mid 80's when he went from the xe to the light weight mustang, he could only get about 320 hp from the stang.

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by aussiemart

ask dicky what engine he would have rarther had in the mid 80's when he went from the xe to the light weight mustang, he could only get about 320 hp from the stang.

The 4-cyl Turbo in the Sierra!

[aussiemart]

Haha true,

[reds89]

if you had to get an engine this would be tough,because both engines can make good hp and be reliable,as for one putting out more power than the other the only way you would find out is if you built 2 identical motors one wind one clevo,how you would do that i dont know cause they run differant head styles recquire differant cam setup etc,but to make it easy for yourself even tho you are a windsor man you have the car its already with an engine,go with whats in it,setup properly you wont be dissapointed.

[ebxr8240]

Originally Posted by aussiemart

ask dicky what engine he would have rarther had in the mid 80's when he went from the xe to the light weight mustang, he could only get about 320 hp from the stang.

I doubt you would have got any more out of a Clevo given the SAME rules....
The rockers and timing chains are some of the issues!!!!
You have to compare apples to apples..
The Sierra was homoligated to the rules at the time...
Group C and Group A rules are totally different...

[montyv8]

sooo.. who gave aussiemart the shovel?
3yo thread, not a bad effort.

[sleekism]

Originally Posted by Falcon Coupe

One engine raced for 14 years, the other over 25 with a 50/50 chance in recent years due to only one other engine in competition.

Not exactly light years ahead.

Didn't Holden use Windsor blocks in the late 90's?

So technically the Windsor had a 100% chance of winning.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by sleekism

Didn't Holden use Windsor blocks in the late 90's?

So technically the Windsor had a 100% chance of winning.

[Quicksand]

off topic: I thought all of the V8 supercars had the same engines so neither were really Holden or Ford. is there anything part from the badge or shell that makes them holden/ford? Happy to post this in the Motorsport area if this is too off topic..

Cheers

T

[steharz]

geez-so much misinformation in this thread,i guarantee most of the knockers have never owned both engines in built state

both the windsor and cleveland are good engines in there own right,and can be built to go like hell

[XWildGT]

I think some of you should watch this regarding the windsors why they lost some bathurst races had nothing to do with the motor

[aussiemart]

Originally Posted by steharz

geez-so much misinformation in this thread,i guarantee most of the knockers have never owned both engines in built state

both the windsor and cleveland are good engines in there own right,and can be built to go like hell

yes so if the car has a clevo in why not just use it? wasn't that the question in the first place.

[f250brains]

the worst thing is you will listen to the clevo fans and never know what the real world is all about

[gtxb67]

Originally Posted by Steffo

5 of the Windsor's 11 ATCC victories occured in the 1960s, meaning lots of other competition. 5 of 11 is 45.45%. Almost half.

the first four victories for ian geoghan's windsor powered mustang were not over a series, but one race. he may very well have won them all anyway if the title was over a series, but as it stands the first four should be considered race wins, as opposed to title victories.
personally i do not care which is better - i love the sound of a clevo but they are both ford and either engine would do me. whatever it came out with is how i would be happy to leave it. however with a money no object rebuild on a coupe, i would probably go with a current engine, not a clevo

[Cam]

Originally Posted by sleekism

Cleveland vs Windsor?? Are we talking original blocks or aftermarket??

Finally! After 6 pages of opinions, a valid post!?

I know this is a pre historic thread and chances are the car has probably already been bought and sold, so for the starter of the thread i have no advice. But if i were looking for outright power i'd be going:

After market Block - weezer
Stock Block - Clevo

As for which aftermarket block runs the quickest ET, won the most races, has the best power figure... - Another story!