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The Pub For General Automotive Related Talk |
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#1 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: upper lockyer qld
Posts: 517
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Did Ford Australia built couple of ford falcon with fitted secretly fit with 4 cylinders or V6 diesel engine as experiment some where in 2007-9 can anyone can confirm if is true or not
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#2 | ||
WT GT
![]() Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: The GSS
Posts: 17,764
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#3 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Victoria
Posts: 7,854
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At the time this is what Ford Ford Thought:
"There isn't the same strong customer need and want -- and it's not on the radar of customers who are really asking us about what they want from Falcon in the future. A diesel powertrain is not top of people's lists for a large sedan, it is for a medium SUV." Instead they made Falcons with EcoBoost and LPI LPG system https://www.carsales.com.au/editoria...-diesel-19683/
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______________________________ 2015 Territory Titanium RWD Diesel - SOLD 2016 BMW X5 xdrive 30D Msport Seadoo Challenger 210SE 310HP |
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#4 | ||
Regular Member
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 459
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I thought EcoBoost had a strong influence from the Rudd Government. I think they provided subsidies for Ford to introduce the EcoBoost.
Consumer demand was a strong driver of demand for diesel Territorys. There was allot demand fo Territorys. |
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#5 | |||
Thailand Specials
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Centrefold Lounge
Posts: 49,097
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Quote:
Holden turned on flex fuel and Ford put the Ecoboost in the Falcon. |
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#6 | ||
Virtuous Bogan (TM)
![]() Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: TAS
Posts: 27,568
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I remember crowing on about it as the time, car made sense to me (much like 5 series and E series TDi).
Would have been able to not bother with ecoboost which never really took off and gas just never got their no matter how low the running costs are. Diesel is plentiful, people are familiar with it etc. Would love a FGX G6 TDI for a daily.
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#7 | ||
Peter Car
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: geelong
Posts: 23,145
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I would not be surprised if they had a few 2.7 TDV6 FG mules running around. They trial things like this from time to time.
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#8 | |||
Donating Member
![]() Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 12,272
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Quote:
Don't get me wrong, I'm glad that Ford and Holden at the time were trying new things to keep buyer interest, and the flow on to the jobs it would in theory have maintained. And I know developing even small changes is expensive. But, the Flex fuel stuff already existed on GM powertrains, all they did was add the parts to Holden spec engines and cars. The EcoBoost engine was already earmarked for RWD platforms at Jaguar, with ZF gearboxes, so the cost of development would have centered around calibration and crash testing. A lot of creative bookkeeping went on during that whole era.
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#9 | ||
Donating Member
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Posts: 12,272
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Also, a diesel Falcon made no sense........in the sedan anyway.
Falcon sedan was a fleet whore, where the cheapest overall cost was key. An expensive diesel engine did not factor. Also, the torque of the I6, in petrol or LPG, was already diesel like. The sedan was otherwise bought at the top end via the XR and FPV lines, as in high performance engines. A diesel is not that. On the Ute though, perhaps diesel would have been a good idea. But then again, the market was changing away from single cab Utes, a diesel engine would have simply taken away from the more profitable I6 engine sales. Although it would have been an interesting idea, Ford were already very generous with the variety of powertrains they offered on Falcon. At one point they offered all of the following - Ecoboost 4 cylinder (Auto) I6 Petrol 6 cylinder (Man or Auto) I6 LPG 6 cylinder (Auto) I6 Turbo 270 (Man or Auto) I6 Turbo 310 (Man or Auto) 5.0 V8 315 (Man or Auto) 5.0 V8 335 (Man or Auto) That's 12 different powertrain variations on a vehicle who's sales were nosediving at the time. A diesel too? Where would it have fitted?
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#10 | |||
Peter Car
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: geelong
Posts: 23,145
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Quote:
But adding a new powertrain isn't a cheap exercise. You have to make it fit, then do all the calibration work on it, emissions testing, and then crash testing, which alone runs into the millions of dollars. Then you have to worry about NVH, which being a direct injection engine actually required a fair bit of work due to the diesel like noise from the injectors, and then you have dynamic work to be done due to the lighter engine sitting further back over the front wheels, then ABS/DSC recalibration and durability testing. $40 million easily in all that. Quite a lot of work. Holden didn't even have to do half of that. |
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#11 | |||
Virtuous Bogan (TM)
![]() Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: TAS
Posts: 27,568
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Quote:
Also I believe the fuel consumption would have been better for a daily than the I6...the I6 drinks like a fish around town. Hence why it would popular in the Territory. I dont have the sale numbers but it would be interesting to see how many petrol vs diesel Territory's were sold once TDI was available.
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#12 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Victoria
Posts: 7,854
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Quote:
Imagine that
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______________________________ 2015 Territory Titanium RWD Diesel - SOLD 2016 BMW X5 xdrive 30D Msport Seadoo Challenger 210SE 310HP |
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#13 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Victoria
Posts: 7,854
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Quote:
bugger all Petrol Territory's were sold towards the end, I think they cost around 2 grand more for the Diesel too To compare for the Falcon an 08 XF Jag with the same 2.7 diesel delivers 7.5L/100 average
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______________________________ 2015 Territory Titanium RWD Diesel - SOLD 2016 BMW X5 xdrive 30D Msport Seadoo Challenger 210SE 310HP |
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#14 | ||
Thailand Specials
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Centrefold Lounge
Posts: 49,097
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I reckon the biggest travesty was the work done to put the diesel in the Territory in the early 00s, then the clown they had as a CEO pulled the rug out at the last second.
Then by the time the diesel engine went back into the Territory it ended up with some thousand year old JLR diesel version of the 3.8L Buick ![]() 140KW/440NM or something which is a **** to drive because of the torque tags, nothing nothing nothing nothing nothing then everything at the roundabout. |
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#15 | |||
Donating Member
![]() Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 12,272
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Quote:
![]() Gorman rode on the tails of success setup by Geoff Polites. As the freshness of the BA Falcon started to wane and sales begun to taper then fall, he copped the blame. At the end of the day, his ability to manage Ford Australia ended up in the hands of the US executives, he was simply the puppet tasked with acting out their directives. It's telling that, like many before and after him, Gormon left the Ford Motor Company after his stint in Australia.
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#16 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Canberra Region
Posts: 8,949
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Quote:
The sales never eventuated. They all bought 4cyl suvs instead, and Territory didn't get a look in because despite being Australian, wasn't 4cyl.
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2016 FGX XR8 Sprint, 6speed manual, Kinetic Blue #170 2004 BA wagon RTV project. 1998 EL XR8, Auto, Hot Chilli Red 1993 ED XR6, 5speed, Polynesian Green. 1 of 329. Retired 1968 XT Falcon 500 wagon, 3 on the tree, 3.6L. Patina project. |
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#17 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,156
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Quote:
Diesel in those cars are a more compelling case, as all of those 6 cylinder petrols have no torque, unlike the Barra. Looking at used sales, there’s bugger all diesels compared to petrols. Which would say no one wanted diesel sedans with negligible fuel savings. |
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#18 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,156
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#19 | ||
Donating Member
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Posts: 12,272
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Not to mention the lovely 70-Series Landcruiser V8!
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#20 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,361
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Quote:
New transmissions, new diff ratios, new exhaust & mounts, extra noise insulation. Direct injection engines are noisy like Diesels. Dr Terry |
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#21 | |||
Thailand Specials
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Centrefold Lounge
Posts: 49,097
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Quote:
They've had AFM/DOD engines since the VZ with the L76, it had all the hardware it just never used the software side of it, then they went to L98 with the VE, which is the same engine minus the DOD/AFM hardware, when the grants came along they put the ethanol content sensor in and enabled it in software and they changed to L77 with the VEII which has all the DOD/AFM hardware and enabled it in software, it has a different cam and lifters to the older L76, thats it. So they did virtually **** all with the V8 VEII E85 cars under the bonnet. They introduced the LFX or what ever it is called with the VEII, thats only the 6 cylinder cars, there was no significant changes to the V8 cars. Last edited by Franco Cozzo; 16-01-2023 at 08:30 PM. |
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#22 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,361
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Quote:
Don't get me wrong, not all of the workers were overpaid, but many had trouble adjusting to more realistic wages after he factory closed down. The simple fact was that the Australian automotive industry was totally uncompetitive in that era. Both Ford & GMH needed that money big time. Dr Terry |
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#23 | |||
Thailand Specials
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Centrefold Lounge
Posts: 49,097
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Quote:
Curious to what the guys who worked on the production line were paid, do we have any Ford Australia employees who worked in non skilled labour roles with Ford Australia? What were you getting paid if you don't mind divulging. The irony is Chinese labour is now more expensive than Mexican labour, which has higher skills and is cheaper. |
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#24 | |||
Donating Member
![]() Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 12,272
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Quote:
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#25 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,361
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Quote:
The V6s were their main game, just like the Fords. The LE0 & LY7 Alloytec V6s which had been around since the VZ days (beginning 2004) were replaced by the LF1 & LLT (3.0 & 3.6) SIDI (Direct Injection) engines for MY10 & then by the E85 versions, LFW & LFX (3.0 & 3.6) for Series II (MY11). These engine upgrades required as much work (if not more) than Ford going from AU to BA. Dr Terry |
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#26 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,361
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Quote:
Also the main "engineering" required was adapting the engine to the chassis, just like Ford did with Diesel Territory. It wasn't just "calibration". Dr Terry |
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#27 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Canberra Region
Posts: 8,949
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Quote:
__________________
2016 FGX XR8 Sprint, 6speed manual, Kinetic Blue #170 2004 BA wagon RTV project. 1998 EL XR8, Auto, Hot Chilli Red 1993 ED XR6, 5speed, Polynesian Green. 1 of 329. Retired 1968 XT Falcon 500 wagon, 3 on the tree, 3.6L. Patina project. |
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#28 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,361
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Quote:
I don't know real up to date figures, but I'm willing to bet that the average "unskilled" production line worker in the USA (read UAW member) earned substantially less than those on the Aussie production line. Dr Terry |
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#29 | |||
Thailand Specials
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Centrefold Lounge
Posts: 49,097
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Quote:
That and the XR6 Turbo made the 5.4L 4V look like a turd rolled in glitter, it wasn't until the Miami came around that the V8 held its own. |
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#30 | |||
Thailand Specials
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Centrefold Lounge
Posts: 49,097
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Quote:
Out of curiosity whats wages like in Japan and Germany's manufacturing industry? |
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