Mondeo 2011 Turbo Diesel lack of power

[JustBill]

Originally Posted by Citroënbender

Will it start, then run on a puff of ether or a splash of petrol?

(Not something you should do often!)

At this point verify the timing as well, I think the diesel is as for the PSA 2 litre petrol and has a flywheel pinning hole to its rear. Be careful not to wind the motor backwards if you miss the timing point - go around twice more.

No, turns over but wont start.

Regarding the timing, it was fine before i started working on the intake manifold. i can't see how the intake manifold and injector removable can offset the timing. If it is a timing chain issue, then it's an amazing coincidence a bad chain causing to mess up the timing on the next start after. But hey..... those odds of such a coincidence to happen to me is likely. I am that cursed.

By the way, if timing was off, surely i would get a number of codes. But i will check it out anyway and thanks for your tips.

[Citroënbender]

Slight mistiming generally gives a cam sensor fault, leading the novice to replace that sensor.

Testing for firing with another fuel (or even a splash of diesel into the intake) is a good way to see if the mechanical aspects of a motor are sound.

[JustBill]

Originally Posted by Citroënbender

Slight mistiming generally gives a cam sensor fault, leading the novice to replace that sensor.

Testing for firing with another fuel (or even a splash of diesel into the intake) is a good way to see if the mechanical aspects of a motor are sound.

I do appreciate your time helping me out Citroen thank you.

Still not getting the full 12v power into the sensor which is strange but getting the 5v from the signal wire which is supposed to.

To verify timing, i will check and lineup flywheel with the pinning hole. If i do that, would i also need to remove the timing belt cover and check that the camshaft and crank all lineup aswell? So it's virtually doing a timing belt change without placing a new belt?

[Citroënbender]

It’s not a two minute exercise, no. Less effort than changing the belt, though.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by JustBill

Yes i clear the codes and it keeps coming back. Though no engine light.

I've only had the car 6 weeks. It came with a full service history (but doesn't specify what was done as part of these services)

What i have done so far so sought out the lack of power and now non start:
A) Test and clean the injectors and add new seals to injectors
B) change transmission fluid and filter
C) New intake manifold gaskets
D) Decarbed the engine intake ports and manifold using a Diesel engine intake Decarb fluid (check photos below and see how bad they were). The injectors were out at the time, i would have had the decarb fluid going in the injector ports, not sure if that was a good idea and caused some contamination or damage.
E) Change engine oil and filter.


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PS: After posting this i ran the scan again and the P0087 Code: Fuel Rail/System Pressure Too Low disappeared on it's own overnight.
But still won't start.and no codes or dashboard warning lights.

Mine wouldn't start at all if the battery was less than good, it'd turn over and never fire, even with jumper leads on it. Or eventually on leads with about 2 minutes worth of cranking, and then it eventually blew a huge black cloud out the exhaust and ran like a bag of dicks than calmed down - it was a picky piece of shit with batteries.

It also used to kill them every 12 months until I MacGyvered in a massive DIN85L sized battery.

You got a battery charger? Put it on the car overnight and then try start in the morning and see how you go.

Also check condition of main earth cable, on the Focus its on the passenger side shock tower, unsure on Mondeo but could be similar as they share a platform.

[JustBill]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Mine wouldn't start at all if the battery was less than good, it'd turn over and never fire, even with jumper leads on it. Or eventually on leads with about 2 minutes worth of cranking, and then it eventually blew a huge black cloud out the exhaust and ran like a bag of dicks than calmed down - it was a picky piece of shit with batteries.

It also used to kill them every 12 months until I MacGyvered in a massive DIN85L sized battery.

You got a battery charger? Put it on the car overnight and then try start in the morning and see how you go.

Also check condition of main earth cable, on the Focus its on the passenger side shock tower, unsure on Mondeo but could be similar as they share a platform.

I did put it to charge overnight. Though admittedly my battery doesn't hold charge but usually enough to get it started. So eventually i will replace it with a new one. I'm just concerned money being spent is ticking over with lightning speed. These Mondeo batteries are not cheap $250 - $350 then only to scrap the whole car for $350 if the car has major problem where it's not worth repairing.

I'm starting to believe i have a timing issue which i'm going to need a new belt. **** me how did i get myself in this mess.

Just learnt from Alan Howatt in one of his videos, that the high pressure fuel pump needs to ne timed also with the power train timing. If the timing is out with the fuel pump you don't get the injector spray in sinc. Maybe that was the original cause of loss in power.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by JustBill

I did put it to charge overnight. Though admittedly my battery doesn't hold charge but usually enough to get it started. So eventually i will replace it with a new one. I'm just concerned money being spent is ticking over with lightning speed. These Mondeo batteries are not cheap $250 - $350 then only to scrap the whole car for $350 if the car has major problem where it's not worth repairing.

I'm starting to believe i have a timing issue which i'm going to need a new belt. **** me how did i get myself in this mess.

Just learnt from Alan Howatt in one of his videos, that the high pressure fuel pump needs to ne timed also with the power train timing. If the timing is out with the fuel pump you don't get the injector spray in sinc. Maybe that was the original cause of loss in power.

When they did the timing belt on mine, the balancer pulley bolt come out a few threads and then snapped in the crankshaft with a nice clean shear

They needed to get some specialist in to get the snapped thread out of the crankshaft, which took him all day.

Be prepared for a fun* time

*will not be the usual definition of fun

If you got good quality jumper leads, get another car onto it, but go to the negative terminal on the Mondeo, not the Mondeo body earth as its not big enough to get enough current through to turn over diesel engine fast enough to get it to fire.

If its like the Focus its a pain in the *** because the negative terminal sits under the wiper cowl, might need to take off the wiper cowl to get enough clearance.

How good are European cars?

[JustBill]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

When they did the timing belt on mine, the balancer pulley bolt come out a few threads and then snapped in the crankshaft with a nice clean shear

They needed to get some specialist in to get the snapped thread out of the crankshaft, which took him all day.

Be prepared for a fun* time

*will not be the usual definition of fun

If you got good quality jumper leads, get another car onto it, but go to the negative terminal on the Mondeo, not the Mondeo body earth as its not big enough to get enough current through to turn over diesel engine fast enough to get it to fire.

If its like the Focus its a pain in the *** because the negative terminal sits under the wiper cowl, might need to take off the wiper cowl to get enough clearance.

How good are European cars?

Yep so is the Mondeo negative terminal. They just wanted to be arseholes when they designed them i think.

Re timing, i'm just going to check if the timing is ok and adjust it if need then retention the same belt, thats if the belt is one piece. So i wont need to unbolt the balancer pully.

[JustBill]

Update:

* I opened the timing case and found the belt intact.
* Then i checked if the timing was accurate.
* Locked the flywheel through the hole behind the starter motor. It definitely went in as the crank wheel could not spin (due to the pin locking the fly wheel)
* Checked if the hole on the cam cogl lined up with the hole on the back which is about 4 o'clock.

Low and behold..... the hole on the cam cog was facing 2'oclock
* Removed the belt from the cam cog, with the fly wheel locked into place, turned that cam cog from 2 o'clock to 4 o'clock where the 2 holes lined up so i can put the bolt through it.
*then put the timing belt on.

Now going to put the pieces back together again and see how it goes.

Question... How is it possible for the timing to go off with the belt not snapped and still teath on the belt? Why i ask is can it happen again.

[Citroënbender]

The crank sprocket is “slip and grip” (my description, not the official term). It relies on that massive torque of the centre bolt to provide clamping force that holds the sprocket in position. When you’re breaking or tightening this bolt, it’s necessary to use a counterholding tool - not to rely on the crank timing rod for you use for checking.

Perhaps the bolt wasn’t tight enough and that’s how you slowly got out of time.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Citroënbender

The crank sprocket is “slip and grip” (my description, not the official term). It relies on that massive torque of the centre bolt to provide clamping force that holds the sprocket in position. When you’re breaking or tightening this bolt, it’s necessary to use a counterholding tool - not to rely on the crank timing rod for you use for checking.

Perhaps the bolt wasn’t tight enough and that’s how you slowly got out of time.

Wonder if the cam timing was maybe a tooth out or something on my Focus because after I got it back after the timing belt was done it was down on power to prior to having it done.

[JustBill]

Originally Posted by Citroënbender

The crank sprocket is “slip and grip” (my description, not the official term). It relies on that massive torque of the centre bolt to provide clamping force that holds the sprocket in position. When you’re breaking or tightening this bolt, it’s necessary to use a counterholding tool - not to rely on the crank timing rod for you use for checking.

Perhaps the bolt wasn’t tight enough and that’s how you slowly got out of time.

I just noticed that slip and grip trying to undo the bolt. It slipped Like 6 times before the bolt loosened. That's with the flywheel locked and the cam sprocket also locked. What does this mean now.... is the timing completely stuffed or it's OK since the fly wheel is in place together with the cam sprocket and that the crank sprocket position doesn't matter?

[Citroënbender]

On the positive side, it sounds like you’ve possibly diagnosed the root cause.

If the crank is located and locked correctly per the pin in rear of flywheel, and your belt driven cam is correctly timed, it doesn’t matter where the lower sprocket and belt are when you tighten the centre bolt. It’s just got to be insanely tight. Peugeot say 70Nm +60°, it’s a single use bolt. Use the old one to make a chasing tool and clean the crank nose threads.

[JustBill]

Originally Posted by Citroënbender

On the positive side, it sounds like you’ve possibly diagnosed the root cause.

If the crank is located and locked correctly per the pin in rear of flywheel, and your belt driven cam is correctly timed, it doesn’t matter where the lower sprocket and belt are when you tighten the centre bolt. It’s just got to be insanely tight. Peugeot say 70Nm +60°, it’s a single use bolt. Use the old one to make a chasing tool and clean the crank nose threads.

You are truly a great human mate. I am blessed to come across you.

[Citroënbender]

You’re too kind. I try to help when I can see someone is making a serious effort themselves.

Hopefully you’re close to a solution, counterholding the ring gear while you lock that bolt down super tight, will be a decent challenge.

[JustBill]

Originally Posted by Citroënbender

You’re too kind. I try to help when I can see someone is making a serious effort themselves.

Hopefully you’re close to a solution, counterholding the ring gear while you lock that bolt down super tight, will be a decent challenge.

I will do it in reverse to when i loosened the bolt. Used the breaker bar and added a 1 meter steel pole as an extension then used both arms to lift. I will also add thread loctite glue to the bolt. Then good luck to anyone needing to take it off again in future.

[goz007]

Best just replace the timing belt whilst u r there......

[NZ XR6]

I've just caught up with this thread... Hope you get it sorted. Does the service history show whether the cambelt has been replaced recently?

Sent from my SM-S906E using Tapatalk

[JustBill]

Originally Posted by NZ XR6

I've just caught up with this thread... Hope you get it sorted. Does the service history show whether the cambelt has been replaced recently?

Sent from my SM-S906E using Tapatalk

I changed it few days ago. The previous one looked ok but changed it anyway since i had everything opened. Or did you mean the cam chain? If that's what you meant, i popped open the intake cover enough to expose the chain. Spun the cam around and the chain looked tight and intact.

I've sorted the timing and closed it all up then crossed my fingers. Still won't start. So i've taken it to a fourth mechanic. Now he tells me something completely different from the other 3. It's the worst case off all. He said the engine is knackered. He said no compression when turning over. Although, i'm no mechanic but i don't believe him. Because without he giving me specifics why the engine is gone, A) the crank wheel spins therefore isn't seized, B) When the cam wheel spins you can hear the suction sound i assume the piston make and i can feel the tightness then release together with the suction sound when spun at particular points.

If he is right..... Then i hope its just the rockers are damaged because i'm confident in changing them myself. Apparently the engines on these Mondeo's are designed for the rockers to give way so the pistons survive if a timing belts or chain snaps.

This has became a nightmare now. I've gone so far (New timing belt + tensioner, Injector seals, intake seals and intake holes cleaned, new transmission fluid and filter, new engine oil and filter, injectors tested and cleaned, new leek off pipe) and am stuffed to know if i should just stop and scrap it or keep fighting.

I'm interested to know if my description as to why i feel the engine is fine and that i could be right or wrong. Big job getting to the rockers then only to find out nothing wrong with the rockers and tappets.

[NZ XR6]

I was trying to understand how the timing could be that far out and thought perhaps the cambelt had been changed and the timing not set properly?

No compression sounds terminal though.



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[goz007]

When u first described how far out the cam gear was I wondered if a valve had meet with a piston,if so as u say I'm also lead to believe that the rockers are the weak link(but that's just hear say on my behalf as I have no concrete evidence to support it) so u may well have a few broken rocker arms, so it's either pull the rocker cover & check or pull the glow plugs(or injectors-depending on the tool & give it a compression check-have any of these so called mechanics given it a compression check or cylinder leak down check?....if not I'd be asking how they came to all these wonderful diagnosis without knowing the true health of the engine & each & every cylinder in that engine.....) also be aware that a diesel will produce a lot more compression than a petrol ,so u need a tool for a diesel(which will also have the relevant adapters be it injector or glow plugs).....not sure were u are but if u are in Sydney I can load u a compression test kit for a diesel.....but also as suggested, pull the air intake off at the manifold & give it a sniff of starter aid & see what it does(don't use that crap start u bastard or aero start-they are the best way to damage an engine....yes seen it many times, all i use is inox or wd40 its flammable enough to induce starting without causing damage) but in all reality your best choice is pull the rocker cover & take a look, if still not 100% have someone wind the engine by hand while u watch the valve train..... I wouldn't give up I don't think u are far off getting this car going..

[JustBill]

Originally Posted by goz007

When u first described how far out the cam gear was I wondered if a valve had meet with a piston,if so as u say I'm also lead to believe that the rockers are the weak link(but that's just hear say on my behalf as I have no concrete evidence to support it) so u may well have a few broken rocker arms, so it's either pull the rocker cover & check or pull the glow plugs(or injectors-depending on the tool & give it a compression check-have any of these so called mechanics given it a compression check or cylinder leak down check?....if not I'd be asking how they came to all these wonderful diagnosis without knowing the true health of the engine & each & every cylinder in that engine.....) also be aware that a diesel will produce a lot more compression than a petrol ,so u need a tool for a diesel(which will also have the relevant adapters be it injector or glow plugs).....not sure were u are but if u are in Sydney I can load u a compression test kit for a diesel.....but also as suggested, pull the air intake off at the manifold & give it a sniff of starter aid & see what it does(don't use that crap start u bastard or aero start-they are the best way to damage an engine....yes seen it many times, all i use is inox or wd40 its flammable enough to induce starting without causing damage) but in all reality your best choice is pull the rocker cover & take a look, if still not 100% have someone wind the engine by hand while u watch the valve train..... I wouldn't give up I don't think u are far off getting this car going..

Thanks for your input my good man.

I'm in Melbourne. By the way i'm 55 years old and am starting to feel my health both physical and mental suffering because of this Mondeo. Not good.
I'm just starting to convince myself it's not going to be the end of the world if i just somehow pay my son back his money and apologies. He will refuse accepting my money but that will mess with my mind more knowing he has a good heart and i cost him his money.

I got myself a dozen rockers this morning. And...... 2 cam position sensors. You know what? not one of the 4 mechanics suggested try a different cam sensor even though the computer says "Problem with the cam sensor". Not even i thought of it (well i did but thought surely the mechanic would have suggested it). I will lolololol if it was that simple and obvious (no i wont instead i will shake my head) but be relieved and start doing cartwheels.

I drove the car 2 weeks with no engine lights or codes at all. This code P0340 camshaft positions sensor "A" never happened until on the way home after picking the car up from the 2nd mechanic. Don't know if they touched something and didn't put back the way its supposed to or it's just a total coincidence. But even then the car would start instantly. This non start and with a new code P0087 fuel rail system pressure didn't happen till after i changed the intake manifold gaskets. so doubt it has anything to do with cam sensor code.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by JustBill

Thanks for your input my good man.

I'm in Melbourne. By the way i'm 55 years old and am starting to feel my health both physical and mental suffering because of this Mondeo. Not good.
I'm just starting to convince myself it's not going to be the end of the world if i just somehow pay my son back his money and apologies. He will refuse accepting my money but that will mess with my mind more knowing he has a good heart and i cost him his money.

I got myself a dozen rockers this morning. And...... 2 cam position sensors. You know what? not one of the 4 mechanics suggested try a different cam sensor even though the computer says "Problem with the cam sensor". Not even i thought of it (well i did but thought surely the mechanic would have suggested it). I will lolololol if it was that simple and obvious (no i wont instead i will shake my head) but be relieved and start doing cartwheels.

I drove the car 2 weeks with no engine lights or codes at all. This code P0340 camshaft positions sensor "A" never happened until on the way home after picking the car up from the 2nd mechanic. Don't know if they touched something and didn't put back the way its supposed to or it's just a total coincidence. But even then the car would start instantly. This non start and with a new code P0087 fuel rail system pressure didn't happen till after i changed the intake manifold gaskets. so doubt it has anything to do with cam sensor code.

VZ-VF Commodores through 'camshaft position sensor' and 'camshaft position sensor bank 1/2' codes when they have stretched timing chains which is common as and the cam timing goes out.

It doesn't say 'cam timing', just 'camshaft position sensor' which leads to people throwing camshaft position sensors at it and having the same problem

Wonder if your camshaft sensor code was an early warning about the timing being out because of the belt slipping out of position.

[JustBill]

Originally Posted by Citroënbender

On the positive side, it sounds like you’ve possibly diagnosed the root cause.

If the crank is located and locked correctly per the pin in rear of flywheel, and your belt driven cam is correctly timed, it doesn’t matter where the lower sprocket and belt are when you tighten the centre bolt. It’s just got to be insanely tight. Peugeot say 70Nm +60°, it’s a single use bolt. Use the old one to make a chasing tool and clean the crank nose threads.

I'm becoming paranoid all of a sudden after reading back on some of the posts. in-particular this incident. Now if the crank wheel spun backwards (when trying to remove the bolt) with the flywheel locked, how is that possible? i mean what would have spun backwards, just the crank sprocket or the crank along with the sprocket while the flywheel remained pinned in place. was it possible the crank moved independently from the flywheel, meaning the crank position is no longer coordinated with the hole in the flywheel? If that's the case this would mean the hole in the flywheel will no longer determine the correct position of the crank. And i'm stuffed.

[goz007]

No if u had the crankshaft pinned by the flywheel & the camshaft pinned,then it is correct(unless it was not pinned on number 1tdc - so even to verify that u will still need rocker cover removed & re-pin the engine & verify that it's correct by looking at the valves#No4 rocking No1 free)the only way the crankshaft could move independently of the flywheel is if the crankshaft was broken. I'd more suspect broken rocker arms

[JustBill]

Removed the rocker cover this morning. 8 obliterated rockers. That's good news.... I think. Atleast now. I know the problem.

I also discovered the cams didn't line up with the cam wheel by 2 chain links.

So now I will position the cams in line with the cam wheel.
Then work out how to verify that crank is correct by looking at the valves#No4 rocking No1 free

[goz007]

Not 100% sure what u mean by cams not lining up with cam wheel(do u mean that when u pinned the crankshaft u couldn't re pin the camshaft?) anyway to be a bit clearer on the valve operation, what I mean when I say free(for No1)is when u are at tdc the No1 cylinder rockers will have clearance(they would be ready to set/check the valve clearances) the rockers will have a very slight free movement & when I say rocking(No4) the exhaust & inlet valves rockers are moving past themselves,(rocking)the exhaust valve will be closing & inlet valve opening(the valves can not be checked or set in this setting)....anyway I see u are not to far away from getting the car running (good luck take your time with the rocker change & valve set/check-id suggest u at least get some feeler gauges & check the valve lash/clearance after u have replaced the rocker arms) + u have now confirmed that when the timing is out the weak link is the rocker arms.... Thankyou for this input.

[goz007]

Also make sure u give that top end a good clean as any broken rocker pieces left may well seriously damage your engine when you start it.

[JustBill]

Originally Posted by goz007

Also make sure u give that top end a good clean as any broken rocker pieces left may well seriously damage your engine when you start it.

What i meant by the cams lining up, there are 2 timing mechanisms. 1) is the belt that drives the cam pully together with the crank pully. Both cam and crank need to be in unison and locked (pinned) to have the timing right. 2) You have a metal chain that spins the two cams (exhaust cam and intake cam) in unison. Now this chain or the 2 cams can't be positioned whichever way, its specific. There is a mark on both cams where the chain particular link (this link on the chain is identified as it is a discolored) and that mark on the intake cam has to face upwards at 12oclock while the exhaust mark on the cam faces 11 oclock. Check attached diagram hopefully makes more sense. So bottom line is, you can have the belt timed up where the holes in the cam pully line up and pinned..... but this doesn't necessarily mean the actual cams are in a correct position, somehow the chain has moved creating the actual cams being in a different position than the cam pully.

https://photobucket.com/share/a40091...2-734ff19a9884

PS, i just spun the crank wheel before placing the cams and had a rod in the hole where the injectors go while spinning the cam. I felt no rise in this rod thats placed in the injector ports. Also no movement in the rockers. I thought the valves rise and drop when spinning the crank. I could be wrong or i could have bigger problem with the engine than first thought.

Also word of advice to anyone reading this.... Don't use your wifes new vacuum cleaner to suck out the cam debris and muck from your engine. Aparently they don't like it

[Citroënbender]

The chain coloured links can be a bit of a distraction, the main requirements are - as you say - for the belt timing points to be lined up and crank bolt “FT” with thread locker, and the chain sprockets to be synchronised. If they’re out of sync now it’s probably due to the interference event which broke the rockers.

On the cam driven by the timing belt, I’m fairly sure both the belt pulley and chain sprocket are positively keyed; they cannot rotate.

The FAI brand rockers used to be a good aftermarket part for these situations, it may be they’re either much dearer or unavailable now.

Note on the crank bolt. Its torque is given in Nm only, which suggests to me the “always fit a new bolt” rule is driven by thread lock paste or granules pre-coated onto the bolt. If it were a TTY bolt it would have a preload torque plus degrees cited.

Breaking bolts or damaging threads on removal is usually the result of people not having the patience to walk the thread in and out, loosening it progressively.