Is this where our Nanny state anti hooning laws are taking us?

[XR6TCraig]

http://www.visordown.com/motorcycle-...ing/20238.html

Long story short, a couple of Chinese guys have been caught street racing and now face the death penalty.

Seems maybe a tad harsh considering no one was hurt or injured, but hooning isn't tolerated in China either apparently.

Is this appropriate? Is it where our anti hoon laws are taking us? ( Not the death penalty, but an equivalent punishment to what you would expect for stabbing someone to death in cold blood)

[MitchG]

yes its way over the top & to harsh...but life is cheap in china.

[Nic85]

The analogy of stabbing someone to death in cold blood is a funny one. You only get about 3 years for that these days, parole after 1 year.

Every K over is a killer.

[Ben73]

Assuming you drove at 200km/h in a 100 zone, that means you killed 100 people. You should go to jail for life.

[Bossxr8]

Murder and rape will soon be a slap on the wrist, but if you hoon you will probably get life, or they will re-introduce the death penalty.

The Vic government would already be considering it no doubt.

[wrongwaynorris]

" Murder and rape will soon be a slap on the wrist "

What do you mean " will soon be " thay are now .

[flappist]

So what do we think will happen when the penalty for hooning is greater than or equal to the penalty for murder?

A while ago USA made the penalty for rape the same as murder.
Expected result, reduction in rapes.
Actual result, increase in rapes where the victim was murdered afterwards, infact for a while there were very few rape victims who survived.

Social engineers love to try and manipulate the people into doing what they think is correct. The problem is that the people don't like being manipulated and eventually react usually violently.

Which is why the most prolific wowsers and social engineering bleeding hearts both professional and amateur always hide their true identies.....

[fat289]

Here we go again , noboby on here has EVER driven at over 110 kph have they !!!!!!!!!!
The powers that be need to WAKE UP & look at the knee jerk reactions they are taking !!!!

[TheInterceptor]

The powers need to do like Harold Holt....

[Jim Goose]

Strangely in China if your a CEO of a company and your product kills people, you get the death penalty..... or if your a government official and caught out accepting bribes.... you get the death penalty....

It has NOTHING to do with "nanny state" but "hard line communist" state in which there is a population of over 1 BILLION people. Do you honestly think that they could afford jails for the number of people who may break a law over there?

With a population that big bumping off offenders is much easier on the state and theres plenty more people there to replace them

[XR6TCraig]

Jim, do you really think we can afford to take the hard line here with our small pool of taxpayers?
Especially when you start making criminals out of people who commit traffic offences?
Population and cost has nothing to do with capital punishment.
While there would potentially be a larger number of criminals in China based on population, on a per capita basis it is likely a similar number to here, and a large population equals a larger pool of taxpayers to leech money from, so it all evens out in the wash.

[Jim Goose]

Originally Posted by Craiginmackay

Jim, do you really think we can afford to take the hard line here with our small pool of taxpayers?
Especially when you start making criminals out of people who commit traffic offences?
Population and cost has nothing to do with capital punishment.
While there would potentially be a larger number of criminals in China based on population, on a per capita basis it is likely a similar number to here, and a large population equals a larger pool of taxpayers to leech money from, so it all evens out in the wash.

No you cant compare the two countries.... or its laws.

The stupidity being carried out here in regards to idiotic and over the top laws are seen as "vote" winners here.
However our Justice system is also very skewed whereby it does protect the criminal over and over again, and forgets that there is a victom.
Look at the pathetic punishments given out to real crims for murder/ rape/ armed robbery/ drugs etc.... and then compare it people who commit money fraud.

In China those laws are not made to "be popular", there is no need to be popular when you rule within a single party without elections.

"hooning" is a easy target as typically its carried out by young people who arent very articulate or know how to gain the upper hand when trying to get their point across.
As a very good example (as much as i hate to say it) is how those idiots in Melb fell into ACA hands HOOK LINE AND SINKER, by stopping their car in the middle of the road and bailing up the camera crew while being filmed.

Sadly these idiots make it worse for everyone else time and time again.
The only saving grace was the one guy who said there is no where for them to go to race or whatever, but his point was lost because of the greater numbers of bone heads who took the limelight.

Kneejerk reation laws will keep being made because "its popular" and seen as a VOTE WINNER... and it wont matter which party is in power as NOTHING will change. They are ONLY there to WIN... NOT TO SERVE YOU.

In Townsville at the moment there is a growing representation of people who want to have a motor sport facility built and so far we have had 2 cruises to gain support.... the first cruise was about 300 to 400 cars... the 2nd cruise was 500 to 600 cars.

Now ALL of these people, weather they ride motorbikes, do motorcross, drag race, sprint cars, drifting, burn outs, go karting or what ever type of motor sport they enjoy, have all GOTTEN TOGETHER FINALLY.

The problem usually is that when small pockets of "car enthusiasts" complain about a new law or something to their local pollie its just brushed off as a rabble of a few people and not even worth mentioning or doing anything about it.

So far the media here has gotten onboard and because its election time a few of the local and state candidates have gotten onboard as well to present their views. One angle presented is that building a facitity for everyone to go to will bring down the numbers of people hooning on the road (but not as a solution).

Sadly the LNP (as shown in another thread on here a few days ago) wants to bring in more laws whereby on your FIRST hooning related offence your car is taken away for 3months.... and on your 2nd offence your car taken away and crushed! or sold.... and people say the Labour party is full of communists?

[XR6TCraig]

Originally Posted by Jim Goose

In Townsville at the moment there is a growing representation of people who want to have a motor sport facility built and so far we have had 2 cruises to gain support.... the first cruise was about 300 to 400 cars... the 2nd cruise was 500 to 600 cars.

Now ALL of these people, weather they ride motorbikes, do motorcross, drag race, sprint cars, drifting, burn outs, go karting or what ever type of motor sport they enjoy, have all GOTTEN TOGETHER FINALLY.

The problem usually is that when small pockets of "car enthusiasts" complain about a new law or something to their local pollie its just brushed off as a rabble of a few people and not even worth mentioning or doing anything about it.

Off topic but it is great to hear this. We really need a track in QLD away from the SE, either in Central or Nth QLD.
If you were to spread the news even wider, you may get people from Cairns and Mackay to work on this as well. This is the first I have heard of it I have to admit and as a track day junkie I would have liked to have supported this too.

I currently do a 2000klm round trip to Brisbane a couple of times a year to do trackdays on my bike because of the lack of facilities up here. I usally do two while down there, so 4 trackdays for the year, but I limited due to the fact that I have to take off time from work, plus the added expense of the travelling. If I had a local track it would be many more. Its funny how many guys from Mackay, Cairns and Townsville I meet at these track days in Brisbane too.

[Jim Goose]

PM sent Craig...

[The Yeti]

So riddel me this, Oldmates cruzin round in his falcon driven like an idiot and kills some one? what should happen to him??

most people would say throw him to the wolfs

Rewind the seen a few moments and the police catch him before he kills some one then what should happen?

what say its alright hes just having some fun?? I dont think so

I dont think it justifys the death penalty but we need to get serious and consitant with these idiots

[flappist]

Originally Posted by The Yeti

So riddel me this, Oldmates cruzin round in his falcon driven like an idiot and kills some one? what should happen to him??

most people would say throw him to the wolfs

Rewind the seen a few moments and the police catch him before he kills some one then what should happen?

what say its alright hes just having some fun?? I dont think so

I dont think it justifys the death penalty but we need to get serious and consitant with these idiots

So what is hooning?

Spinning the wheels?
You don't get rain or dirt on your roads?

40km/h over the limit?
You don't roadworks such as grasscutting who leave their signs out all night?

Too much noise?
You don't ever have a faulty exhaust and can't get it fixed for a few days?

Is travelling at 20km/h below the speed limit and then speeding up on every dual passing lane, giving way to approaching traffic on a rondabout like it was an intersection, hogging the right lane sitting next to the only other car on the road (80km/h and below zones) etc. driving like an idiot?

None of this is illegal but is extremely stupid and stressing to other road users.

And last question:

Two drivers:
One 20km/h over the limit in modern car with good tyres and maintenance and a drunk pedestrian runs out in front.....bang....crumple zones save the life.
Other 20km/h under the limit in 30 year old car with 4 mismatched donuts or all rounders, another drunk pedestrian.....bang....dead.

Which driver is the dangerous criminal with no regard to public safety?

You cannot have a blanket penalty for an undefined crime.......

[XR6TCraig]

Originally Posted by The Yeti

So riddel me this, Oldmates cruzin round in his falcon driven like an idiot and kills some one? what should happen to him??

most people would say throw him to the wolfs

Rewind the seen a few moments and the police catch him before he kills some one then what should happen?

what say its alright hes just having some fun?? I dont think so

I dont think it justifys the death penalty but we need to get serious and consitant with these idiots

Without the new hooning laws, there were already laws in place to deal with this kind of incident, so what is your point exactly? Depending on your state and the nature of the crime these would include manslaughter, culpable driving, dangerous driving, etc,etc.

That we should come down really hard on people caught doing silly ***** on the road because o fthe potential they have of harming someone?

[GTP owner]

Originally Posted by The Yeti

So riddel me this, Oldmates cruzin round in his falcon driven like an idiot and kills some one? what should happen to him??

most people would say throw him to the wolfs

Rewind the seen a few moments and the police catch him before he kills some one then what should happen?

what say its alright hes just having some fun?? I dont think so

I dont think it justifys the death penalty but we need to get serious and consitant with these idiots

That's an easy rebuff - one has a victim, the other does not.

Let's take your example one step further.... A man is very angry with his wife, has a barnie, goes to the shed, pulls out a gun and shoots her.
In your language we would throw him to the "wolfs" sic.

Rewind the "seen" (scene) for a few moments and the police interrupt the domestic argument. He has a gun in the shed and might have used it.

See the point?

[gtxb67]

Originally Posted by GTP owner

That's an easy rebuff - one has a victim, the other does not.

Let's take your example one step further.... A man is very angry with his wife, has a barnie, goes to the shed, pulls out a gun and shoots her.
In your language we would throw him to the "wolfs" sic.

Rewind the "seen" (scene) for a few moments and the police interrupt the domestic argument. He has a gun in the shed and might have used it.

See the point?

a comparative situation would be the cops showing up once the man has taken the gun out of the shed

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by Craiginmackay

Jim, do you really think we can afford to take the hard line here with our small pool of taxpayers?
Especially when you start making criminals out of people who commit traffic offences?
Population and cost has nothing to do with capital punishment.
While there would potentially be a larger number of criminals in China based on population, on a per capita basis it is likely a similar number to here, and a large population equals a larger pool of taxpayers to leech money from, so it all evens out in the wash.

Huh?

You can't compare this issue in China to anywhere, China's judicial system is one out of the box and implying that this case in China is the thin edge of the wedge for some sort of "new world order" for dealing with hooning offences is quie frankly, ridiculous.

Also, despite China's population, their rate of offending is relatively low compared to here. I've spent a bit of time there and to be honest, I'd feel safer wandering the streets of Beijing at midnight than any capital city here.

[XR6TCraig]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

Huh?

You can't compare this issue in China to anywhere, China's judicial system is one out of the box and implying that this case in China is the thin edge of the wedge for some sort of "new world order" for dealing with hooning offences is quie frankly, ridiculous.

Also, despite China's population, their rate of offending is relatively low compared to here. I've spent a bit of time there and to be honest, I'd feel safer wandering the streets of Beijing at midnight than any capital city here.

I wasn't comparing China with anywhere else. My post was in reply to Jims comment that with over 1 billion in population they cant afford to house them in a prison. I dissagree. If anything Australia would be less likely to afford it. Cost has nothing to do with it in this case.
Nor was I alluding to China being the "thin edge of the wedge" in terms of their way of dealing with hoons, as you describe it. I just thought it was a fairly way out there way to deal with something that to me is not that big a deal compared to rape or murder or child molestation.

I just don't believe that cost, or the large population has anything to do with these 'hoons' being put on death row, rather than a more suitable punishment for their crimes being dealt out.

[falconnut]

This thread is doing my head in.

[XR6TCraig]

Have 6 beers and then only read every fourth post.
Make any more sense now?

[StockieXR6T]

My uncles, granfather, father in law were all hoons by todays standards, as was I 20 years ago, there was a time your old man took you out into an industrial estate and showed you how to have a hoon without a TOG car at every round about. Why not provide more places to have a hoon, we are in an industrial estate and we get "hoons" doing burnouts and skids at night. I don't care, what are the going to do there? jump a gutter, bend a rim and axle. Let em use the Industrial backstreets and keep them out of residential areas, at one time or another we have all done it and I would believe those that do it have better car handling skills and make better drivers in emergency situations. The governement needs to get serious about drivers education and provide vehicle handling courses like Germany and Switerland, after all road deaths are second in deaths in this country for young males 19-25 to suicide, and dosent that get a lot of support!

Joel

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by falconnut

This thread is doing my head in.

lol, yes.

Now Craig, yes you are correct, the issue with China has less to do with the cost/size of prisons or whatever and the fact that China is governed by an opressive regime that maintains control of the populace through terror and subjugation. Using the threat or punishment of death is the vehicle by which they do this and has nothing to do with the cost of anything.

[Ezz]

**** this is retarded...
lets not forget that speed limits have been put there by dudes! Yes dudes! They didn't appear there after the road was built. So, my point is, there are some places that have an 80 or 100 km speed limit, within the vicinity of mayby a few hundred meters of each other. If you go one Km over 80... even if your only 1 cm away from the 100 zone... your ******! You cop a speeding fine. SUCKS!

It's all a load of crap... revenue raising ******** as we all know yet the public ain't doing anything about it... we just go on and cop it all. ****, this is a democracy and we should have the right to vote of these ridiculous tax payer funded initiatives such as fixed speed cameras. man!

Anyway, bk to the OP question. I've had a few ya see... a little slow right now.

Stuff, i thought living in Bali was bad... man get caught in CHina for doing a little skid and little led footing and ya cop the death penalty... strooth, what is the world comin' too?

[XR6TCraig]

I will be interested to hear your comments again about this tomorrow, post hangover EZZ!

[Crazy Dazz]

I don’t defend Hoons, not at all. But it does strike me than many of these anti-hoon laws are once again aimed at penalising honest people because that’s easier.
A guy who owns a car does a burnout, he gets caught, loses his licence, loses his car, and possibly loses his livelihood.
A druggo steals a car and leads Police on a 200kph chase on the wrong the side of the road. He gets caught, gets community service that he never attends, gets banned from driving when he never had a licence anyway, goes out and repeats again and again.

Yes, a person “hooning” and going over the speed limit by 5~10k is “dangerous” but nowhere near as dangerous as the aforementioned druggie.

It’s the same with drink driving. Yes a person with 0.05BAC is impaired and shouldn’t be driving, but such a person driving slowly and cautiously is far less dangerous and impaired than some hallucinating speedfreak flying down your street at 150kph.

[Jim Goose]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

I don’t defend Hoons, not at all. But it does strike me than many of these anti-hoon laws are once again aimed at penalising honest people because that’s easier.
A guy who owns a car does a burnout, he gets caught, loses his licence, loses his car, and possibly loses his livelihood.
A druggo steals a car and leads Police on a 200kph chase on the wrong the side of the road. He gets caught, gets community service that he never attends, gets banned from driving when he never had a licence anyway, goes out and repeats again and again.

Yes, a person “hooning” and going over the speed limit by 5~10k is “dangerous” but nowhere near as dangerous as the aforementioned druggie.

It’s the same with drink driving. Yes a person with 0.05BAC is impaired and shouldn’t be driving, but such a person driving slowly and cautiously is far less dangerous and impaired than some hallucinating speedfreak flying down your street at 150kph.

A drug dealer isnt by definition.... "visible" to the general public.
A "hoon" is.... people see the car doing burnouts, street racing etc....
Plus a lot will congregate in very large groups out in public at night.

As you said, its an easier target for the pollies to pick on.

But, and here is the real issue, when the new "bikie gang laws" got passed did we all get up in arms? How about some of the more insane fishing laws?
Id say we didnt....

Some laws I agree with and yes we do need rules and regulations (within reason) but now we have just about every aspect of our lives being governed by stupidity.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by flappist

Two drivers:
One 20km/h over the limit in modern car with good tyres and maintenance and a drunk pedestrian runs out in front.....bang....crumple zones save the life.
Other 20km/h under the limit in 30 year old car with 4 mismatched donuts or all rounders, another drunk pedestrian.....bang....dead.

Which driver is the dangerous criminal with no regard to public safety?

You cannot have a blanket penalty for an undefined crime.......

Funny you mention that because a few years ago my cousin had a drunk lady stumble out in front of her off the side walk and she hit her at easily around 30km/h, and aside from some deep bruising and feeling sore for a few weeks after, the drunk woman came out of it all right, but the car had a fair bit of panel damage and some red hair stuck in the windscreen were her head hit it.