Germany, new traffic penalties

[Keepleft]

Following taken from 'aus.cars' Newsgroup where I am usually found, posted courtesy of Bernd Felsche, included here for discussion-perusal. One would wonder if our 'experts' would ever be capable of even comprehending this, notice Germany accepts speed as a given and deals with it, we on the other hand, try to deny it.

Germany is increasing penalties for amongst other things; tailgating
(following too closely) from May 2006.

e.g. Those maintaining a following distance of less than 15 metres
at 100 km/h will get a 3-month holiday from driving for a small fee
of 250 Euro (approx AUD$400).

Those following at more than 15 metres
(but less than 25) get a one-month vacation from behind the wheel at
a small fee of 150 Euro.

That 15 metres is 30% of the minimum recommended (half-speedo = 50
metres which approximates 2 seconds). Germans are fitted with
calibrated eyeballs when they get their licences so that they can
measure distance as easily as time intervals. :-)

Apply that in most of Australia and you'd eliminate almost all
crashes for 3 months by thinning out traffic by more than 80%.

--
/"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia
\ / ASCII ribbon campaign | German words of the year 2005:
X against HTML mail | Bundeskanzlerin Tsunami Gammelfleisch
/ \ and postings | Sadly, in that order.

[HLC]

[QUOTE=Keepleft] Germans are fitted with
calibrated eyeballs when they get their licences so that they can
measure distance as easily as time intervals. :-)[QUOTE]

not quite.

those laws would be ridiculous. 2 seconds at any speed is still not a sufficient gap. and how will people be booked? german's might be efficient and whatnot, but those laws are just plain stupidity.

[Gammaboy]

Vee Haf Vays of makink you stop!

Hooo-Gaaaan!

[outback_ute]

Interesting. HLC, 2sec is widely recommended as the minimum gap in good conditions - which at 100km/h (or 36m/s) would be 70m. (disclaimer - I may have completely fouled that up!) 15m is a lot more gap than you see a lot of cars on our freeways leaving every day... Mind you a 3mth suspension is a very harsh penalty, I don't think it is necessary for a first offence.

[Gammaboy]

Originally Posted by outback_ute

Mind you a 3mth suspension is a very harsh penalty, I don't think it is necessary for a first offence.

Perhaps a few days in zee Cooler?

[FordFan86]

Germans are fitted with
calibrated eyeballs when they get their licences so that they can
measure distance as easily as time intervals. :-)

In the Third Reich someone like Iron Gustav could have made this the case.
Also, I'm pretty sure that if the cars had triangles stuck on their tail gates the amount of accidents would also be nil.
Do I sense another crusade coming along?

[Aaron_EF8]

Interesting. HLC, 2sec is widely recommended as the minimum gap in good conditions - which at 100km/h (or 36m/s) would be 70m. (disclaimer - I may have completely fouled that up!)

Almost, 100kmh is roughly 24m/s. ;)

As a guide, the gaps in the lines on the shoulders of a highway are 24m apart.

Aren't autobahn's and major roads in Germany equipped with cameras for detecting distances between cars?

[Iphido]

I think these new laws are to stop computer tailgating.

With new radar cruise control it and on some models it is possible to lock onto traffic at something like 15 metres at ~120kmph. For a while tailgating really close was in vouge as you could save fuel by locking onto some barge and hide in his wake like the F1 cars do.

I remember seeing some nut burgers website. He was tailgating trucks in his golf and in traditional german style keeping a daily log and the amount of fuel he was saving and optimal distances for tailgating.

You would drive onto the autobahn and there would be maybe 2 or 3 cars seperated by about 1.5 metres from a truck infront. All travelling at 90 kmph.

The other things germans love to do is enforce the keep right rule. If they are in the fast 250kmph and greater lane they will tailgate you at less than 1 metre if you are slowing them down. Accompanied with lights and horns and maybe a attempt to pass you on your right inbetween you and the armco.

Germany has real problems on autobahns when traffic is heavy, these laws reflect this.

[outback_ute]

Originally Posted by Aaron_EF8

Almost, 100kmh is roughly 24m/s. ;)

Oops, I must be leaving my brain off until work tomorrow. : 100km/3600sec in an hour = 27.78m/s, close enough.

Or to put it another way - 15m is covered in just over 1/2 a second at 100km/h. Assuming you were paying attention, by the time you see the brake lights in front, move your foot across to the brake pedal and apply the brakes you will either have hit or be just about to hit the car in front!

Originally Posted by Aaron_EF8

Almost, 100kmh is roughly 24m/s. ;)

As a guide, the gaps in the lines on the shoulders of a highway are 24m apart.

Aren't autobahn's and major roads in Germany equipped with cameras for detecting distances between cars?

No.

Police cars, marked and unmarked, are equipped with video cameras for recording offenders. They start recording when they spot an offender and record for some time to make sure that they have something to show in court if the offender doesn't cop it sweet.

The cameras on the Autobahn are for recording toll dodgers. Heavy vehicles now have to pay an Autobahn toll; which "surprisingly" is putting stress on other highways a year later.

those laws would be ridiculous. 2 seconds at any speed is still not a sufficient gap. and how will people be booked? german's might be efficient and whatnot, but those laws are just plain stupidity.

The laws aren't ridiculous and the laws allow for a scale of penalty along with the perceived risk. Germany has had such laws for a long time. Police cars are equipped with video equipment for recording offences. Only the penalties at the top end of the scale have increased.

Penalties for mild tailgating; maintaining the equivalent of less than 2 seconds' but more than 1 second's gap at worst results in bruised ego and slightly-deflated wallet ($50 on the spot "warning"). Penalties increase steeply at less than about half a second's gap.

2 seconds should be a sufficient gap for reaction (cognitive, human motor action and mechanical delays) for the vast majority of the driving population. If they weren't fixated on the speedometer or DVD movie.

Originally Posted by Iphido

I think these new laws are to stop computer tailgating.

With new radar cruise control it and on some models it is possible to lock onto traffic at something like 15 metres at ~120kmph. For a while tailgating really close was in vouge as you could save fuel by locking onto some barge and hide in his wake like the F1 cars do.

I doubt that *very* much. No car manufacturer within sniffing distance of a lawyer would build a car for general consumption that's "capable" of such things.

Car makers are EXPERIMENTING (still, after about 20 years) with telematics that allow cars to entrain behind a lead vehicle that's suitably instrumented and communicating with the electronics of the following vehicle.

Originally Posted by Iphido

I remember seeing some nut burgers website. He was tailgating trucks in his golf and in traditional german style keeping a daily log and the amount of fuel he was saving and optimal distances for tailgating.

You would drive onto the autobahn and there would be maybe 2 or 3 cars seperated by about 1.5 metres from a truck infront. All travelling at 90 kmph.

The other things germans love to do is enforce the keep right rule. If they are in the fast 250kmph and greater lane they will tailgate you at less than 1 metre if you are slowing them down. Accompanied with lights and horns and maybe a attempt to pass you on your right inbetween you and the armco.

Germany has real problems on autobahns when traffic is heavy, these laws reflect this.

Here's news: Australia doesn't have a monopoly on stupid drivers. It doesn't even hold a Patent.

[Redrum]

I bet on the autobahns in Germany people actually stay left when they are going slow unlike Australia where they do ten kilometres less than the signed speed limit in the right lane.

[SpoolMan]

Germany - Driving and Public Transportation

There are many driving laws and regulations in Germany, despite the fact that the country is renowned for having no speed limits on its autobahns. The recommended maximum limit on these high-speed roads is 130 kph (80 mph). There are many accidents and multiple car pile-ups on these roads, so drivers should take special caution.
On other roads the usual speed limit is 100 kph (60 mph) and 50 kph (30 mph) in built-up areas.

Speed cameras are widely used, and penalties are severe. Driving in excess of 40 kph over the speed limit is likely to result in a hefty fine and the suspension of the driver’s licence for up to three months. Cameras are also used at traffic lights.

It is often faster and more convenient to use public transport than to drive in Germany, as the high level of car ownership has led to severe congestion and parking problems in all the main cities. Germany’s public transport systems are very good, particularly the rail network. There are high-speed rail links between all the main cities within Germany, and with other European countries. Within the cities and main towns, there are reliable tube, tram and bus services. There are also designated cycle lanes to encourage people to leave their cars at home.

[OLDFORDNUT]

in all my years of driving since 1979 ive only seen someone pulled over for going too slow and holding up traffic a couple of times,imagine how much faster and safely we could go places if our cops actually enforced the rules such as these and travelling slow in rh lane.
sounds like the Germans have realised this ,as for lots of crashes on Autobauns where do you get this info from as its the first ive heard about it,sure they have had some big multi car pile ups over the years but, all the time (I dont think so)

[xbgs351]

Originally Posted by Redrum

I bet on the autobahns in Germany people actually stay left when they are going slow unlike Australia where they do ten kilometres less than the signed speed limit in the right lane.

I bet they don't. Perhaps because the steering wheel is on the left hand side?

[Big Mike]

Personally haven't been to Europe, although my father has and a number of my colleagues - all agree you sit in the fast lane you're an idiot. And that people choosing to travel at the posted speed or faster, will excersise their right to flash and blast you until you get out of their way. Fair enough I say. These pricks who sit in the right (Australia) regardless of thier speed really peeve me. "Keep Left Unless Overtaking" is LAW not a hint. And while I spend a lot of time in the right lane (can't really say I keep left, certainly don't dodge in and out of the right lane) I have NEVER slowed someone - always got into the left before a faster driver gets up to me. And sometimes I wonder if I'm the only one...

In a lot of other countries around the world overtaking on the inside (left in Oz) is ILLEGAL - and again I say rightly so. But still I am FORCED to pass on the left, or slow down and flash my lights (and keep slowing because they're gonna be c*** about it) virtually every day. Edit: I'm reffering to 80+km/h roads, not the 50s and 60s so much

I'm sure major pile-ups at high speeds on the Autobahns do occur, and I'm sure they are horrific. However, I do recall hearing a conversation about some time ago when they enforced a speed limit on a section of Autobahn, during which period some enormous number of fatalaties occured. I think it was six months before the speed limit was removed once more and 'safe' fast motoring was back in place. I don't remember the actual statistics but I think it was something like 1 or 2 fatalaties per year as an open road, and 40 or 60 fatalaties within the six months of having a speed limit. As I said - I don't recall the numbers at all but I'm sure its factual and out there to research if anyone cares.

On a quick but tight section of a popular but quiet Adelaide hills road yesterday, blasting along on a cruise, where I think the official speed limit was 80km/h, although most corners had 'reccommended speeds' of 25 or 35km/h, therefore I needed to slow heavily for each, squirt along between them having a good time travelling quick, but safely. Relatively speaking. I probably didn't exceed 80 between each turn, although I wouldn't know for sure - its too envolving a road to be worrying about statistics, and the term "dangerous driving" could be considered even well under the speed limit. Point I'm getting to we happened upon an elderly *****, who chose to drive at 30-40 km/h the entire way - and STILL brake for every corner. I knew roughly where the next "Slow vehicle turnout" was, so waited patiently behind.
Finally the turnout lane appears, and where do you reckon Mr.I Own The Road went? The right lane. Of course. And my big Ford roaring in 2nd gear, with the horn and quad lights ablaze didn't deter him at all. This lane was too short for any of us to squirt past on the left, though if he slowed and moved left for maybe 5 - 10 seconds we could have ALL driven past and on our merry way. Now I suppose road rage comes into play when for maybe the 2nd or 3rd time EVER I became agitated and I admit blasting the horn, and holding the lights on for a few seconds. Long story short, I got more agitated and eventually past him, though perfectly safe due to his pathetic speed, over a double line with not enough vision had he been higher, faster, or had a motorbike been coming very fast the other way.

More "Keep the F** Left" stories? Ask any Ambo or anyone who drives with lights and sirens in the right lane, yet still has to brake or steer around asholes who simply never learnt the rules, don't pay attention, or are just too bloody arrogant (which in my belief happens a lot)

I'm not 100% on how those distance-sensing cruise control units work, or at what range they will work to, however I believe in theory they are a great idea. And I also think its a great idea to be POLICING THE DANGER on the roads, like tailgating, like driving obstanantly slow, like blocking cars, like being wreckless, like taking drugs, like failing to pay attention. I strongly believe a speed camera does not save any more lives; I strongly believe advanced driving courses shouldn't be "advanced", they should just be part of giving us the privelage to drive. And I also strongly believe driving is a privelage, not a right.
And by "advanced driving course" I don't mean purely skid pan and on-the-edge stuff, I mean how to ACTUALLY DRIVE A CAR, and pay attention to your surroundings, etc. etc.

[Aaron_EF8]

Last time I flashed my lights and beeped my horn at a driver not pulling into the slow overtaking lanes in the Adelaide hills, she rang the police and dobbed me in for road rage and dangerous driving.

Last time I checked, it was $170 and 3 points for not keeping to the left lane in SA. not that I've heard anyone getting done for this, it would be a really good idea IMO to put this on the 'Keep Left Unless Overtaking' signs, it might snap a few people out of thinking the signs are just a suggestion, and it's actually law.

It's also $170 and 3 points for overtaking a car on the inside too...

[Des]

Well said Big Mike.
I travel up and down the M5 all time and have lost count of the idiots who give you that "Your a maniac hoon" look after you've given them a flash for sitting in the right hand lane (under the posted limit) with no other vehicles for 50 metres in either direction. 8 out of 10 times you need to overtake in the left hand lane, frustrating and dangerous.
Anyway back OT, Laws like this would be impossible to police in Australia, as you never see police on our motorways and freeways (most used style of "high-speed dual carrigeway" in this country).

[merlin]

Originally Posted by Big Mike

These pricks who sit in the right (Australia) regardless of thier speed really peeve me. "Keep Left Unless Overtaking" is LAW not a hint. And while I spend a lot of time in the right lane (can't really say I keep left, certainly don't dodge in and out of the right lane) I have NEVER slowed someone - always got into the left before a faster driver gets up to me. And sometimes I wonder if I'm the only one...

Agree completley - if someone wants to go past I move over

(then blow them away at the next set of lights)

[HLC]

Originally Posted by outback_ute

Interesting. HLC, 2sec is widely recommended as the minimum gap in good conditions - which at 100km/h (or 36m/s) would be 70m. (disclaimer - I may have completely fouled that up!) 15m is a lot more gap than you see a lot of cars on our freeways leaving every day... Mind you a 3mth suspension is a very harsh penalty, I don't think it is necessary for a first offence.

100kays per hour is roughly 27 metres per second. now a 2 second gap would be 54 metres. which is a very large gap. much larger than what most people, myself included, leave.

but when thinking of reaction times and what not. say the car infront ploughs into a pile up that they didnt see cause of smoke/fog/whatever.

now the car behind sees this, takes 1 second to react, (random number) now only has 27 metres to stop the car/avoid accident.

food for thought.

[HLC]

Originally Posted by Iphido

The other things germans love to do is enforce the keep right rule. If they are in the fast 250kmph and greater lane they will tailgate you at less than 1 metre if you are slowing them down. Accompanied with lights and horns and maybe a attempt to pass you on your right inbetween you and the armco.

its unspoken law, that generally you shouldnt be in the fast lane unless you are doing around 250 km/h

on the autobahn between Cologne and Bonn, the people i stayed with told me that you had to be doing around 220-230 at least to even consider going in that lane. we were pushing 180 in this 4cyl escort, and it sounded like it was going to blow up.

[gozza]

yeah i always move over if i have somone comming up faster then me no worries..im always thinking of how my diriving affects others(well 98% of the time) like being aware of truckies and such..i always do my darndest to keep well ahead of trucks to they don't need to slow down
but everyday i find a handfull of rightcheous people who think they can sit at 95 in the fast lane...i'll tolerate 105..maybe even 100 if theres no one else and i'm happy to cruise...but i think that 105-110 is a minimum in the fast lane..yes im aware of the speed limit but thats the case
if you sit on 100 prepared to be beeped and flashed...i don't roar up peoples a55es..i give em a chance then i will

[parawolf]

I don't get what people are talking about this '2 second gap'. I was always instructed 3 second (count 1-one thousand 2-one thousand 3-one thousand). I always found that 'close enough' when going at 100km/h.

Since when was 2 seconds the new rule? I'm not that old am I? (27...)

At a rate of 36seconds per 1km when doing 100km/h, gives me 87 metres distance.

[merlin]

Originally Posted by parawolf

I don't get what people are talking about this '2 second gap'. I was always instructed 3 second (count 1-one thousand 2-one thousand 3-one thousand). I always found that 'close enough' when going at 100km/h.

Since when was 2 seconds the new rule? I'm not that old am I? (27...)

At a rate of 36seconds per 1km when doing 100km/h, gives me 87 metres distance.

your right mate - I was taught 3 seconds in both car and bike tests

[Keepleft]

Originally Posted by XRFPV8

Germany - Driving and Public Transportation

There are many driving laws and regulations in Germany, despite the fact that the country is renowned for having no speed limits on its autobahns. The recommended maximum limit on these high-speed roads is 130 kph (80 mph).

Germany is bound to ask its driving population if they want a speed limit, historically the answer is always a resounding 'no'. Indeed, a couple of years ago the then German Transport Minisister under Schroeder commented about old East German autobahnen that had been upgraded to National Standard and posted with 120 - 130km/h speed limits, - that he wanted them removed as soon as possible. Indeed they have been, but as you point out, limits will always remain as needed for given stretches, otherwise its a responsible (///) allowance.

It's a serious, serious business Germany, most Australians are shocked at just how serious they are with their driving. Keeping middle is a serious offence if the right (left here) lane is clear. This was noted by our Roads Minister Loyd who stated December 15, 2004 in Canberra that he wants that level of lane behaviour-discipline here in Australia, but lamented - it would take some time, perhaps not in my lifetime. We shall see.


There are many accidents and multiple car pile-ups on these roads, so drivers should take special caution.

I actually wanted to point this out - The German motorway system is in fact safer in its crash rates bearing a couple of years ago - 4.1 per 100MVKT, than France at 18 per 100MVKT-with its dry 130km/h and wet 110km/h limits.

Indeed the Autobahn is safer than the US Interstate system for many reasons which include mandatory vehicle equipment, and greater driver responsibilities, hell - late last year it became law in Germany, Italy and France that in addition to my nagging about triangles, that you must also wear a safety vest at breakdowns and crash scenes, penalties apply if you don't.

Yes, they do get crashes, sometimes spectacular, but there are fewer of them, indeed each year despite increasing traffic volumes.

The F3 in NSW as a singular example varies from 8.1MVKT to 23.0MVKT. (NRMA Audit-2005). According to BAST in Germany, I cannot see a single unrestricted autobahn that gets that level.

[Big Mike]

I'm not sure if I was taught 2 or 3 seconds or any instruction at all??? No you're not that old - I'm soon to be 24 and my friends, and 20-yr-old sis were "taught" to shuffle their hands like a fag (or a Pom) between 10/2 and 12 a few inches at a time - instead of the PROPER way of turning hand-over-fist when you need to wrench the car around. Fortunately my 'instructor' was very laid back and used suggestion, rather than instruction to impart knowledge atop my common sense. Then I go to a race track and am taught to do it all completely differently again - like WHERE to sit (so knees are still bent in accident, etc.) There is a MASSIVE differance between what's right, what's safe, what's common practice, and what's taught.

Keepleft - I gather the "MVKT" acronym represents a mortality rate? Or obviously a crash of some description? I agree entirely with everone's points here - another point I might bring up: Things we often can't all agree on have a way of making it into common place, so how come some of the issues raised here - and agreed upon by all - can't be put into place? Now there's something to ponder...

[outback_ute]

Mike, I think deaths per kilometres travelled or similar

[CongoAU2]

I think the number stands for how many carashes per 100 motor vehicle kilometres travelled.

[xbgs351]

MillionVehicleKilometresTraveled